Elisa Lam - What Happened?

Discussion in 'Elisa Lam' started by gitana1, Mar 2, 2013.

?

Why did Elisa die?

  1. Homicide/crime of opportunity - Murder due to chance encounter with someone on the day she died

    162 vote(s)
    47.4%
  2. Homicide/preplanned - Elisa was lured to her death in a scheme planned before the day she died

    46 vote(s)
    13.5%
  3. Accidental death - related to an altered mental state: drug induced, psychosis, sleep walking, etc.

    86 vote(s)
    25.1%
  4. Suicide - Elisa intended to end her life due to mental issues/other

    7 vote(s)
    2.0%
  5. Occult/supernatural/conspiracy - related to occult, supernatural phenomena or gov./other conspiracy

    5 vote(s)
    1.5%
  6. Unsure/Do not know

    36 vote(s)
    10.5%
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  1. Sillybilly

    Sillybilly Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I just asked the expert ... and that's fine if you choose to discount it based on that. Personally, I choose not to disregard it due to what could possibly be her poor eyesight.
     


  2. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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    I'm not sure how long you have been on websleuths, but LE very rarely divulges anything much at all to the general public about a case until they are ready to make a legal conclusion. That includes evidence you believe makes LE look better.

    LE can often form an opinion quickly but they must investigate all angles. The silence form them is evidence that that is precisely what is happening here. And little to no evidence will be released until they are through or completely, irrevocably at a stand still.

    No evidence that has been released contradicts the theory of psychosis and death from misadventure. Interpol often gets involved in high profile missing person cases or tourist deaths. Al that means is that LE is not narrowly conforming their investigation to one theory.

    I don;t know, do those of you surprised at a psychosis theory have a lot of history with homeless populations or psychosis? Maybe a person just has to be super observant and curious. I don't know.

    I have seen it a lot, though and it;s easy to recognize for me, at least. And like Rougelatete said, a person can function and seem normal right in the middle of a psychotic episode, at times. That's why diagnosing it can sometimes take some time - because a person rbought in may be acting relatively normal for a moment or two and the tell tale behavior may not be readily apparent to the medical professional who is assessing the patient.
     
  3. gitana1

    gitana1 Verified Attorney

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    There were warning signs from Elisa according to anecdotal evidence on her blog and Reddit from people who claim to know her. Elisa talked repeatedly about inability to sleep and serious depression, for example. A woman in the book store in L.A. reported that Elisa was inappropriately effusive.

    To equate viewing this video and recognizing signs of psychosis with trying to sink a witch is pretty incredible to me. It is, in fact, education, and science that brought us out of the dark ages and the witch burning days. Now, bizarrely, the very people with the scientific knowledge to make some sort of assessment of Elisa;s behavior are being equated with medieval zealots. That is quite odd to me. I think it may actually simply be just a case of anger that the experts disagree with a certain theory.

    Finally, I saw the video in whioch the speed i9s fixed. Nothing seemed much different to me.

    It was her methodical and dramatic manner of doing so. When she first came in that elevator and began methodically pushing buttons down the row, she did this twisty, little thing with her hand and wrist and after twirling it briefly in the air, dramatically pointed her finger down and systematically pushed several buttons. That just does not indicate a person who has safety concerns. And I don't think you need to be a mental health professional to know that.

    I'm not a medical professional but I saw the fixed speed and it seemed the same. You don;t have to accept the professional's opinion but at some point I think it seems prudent to wonder why every single one has the same response.

    The speed has ntohing to do with it, IMO, because the same people who insist it's a witch hunt to believe Elisa was having a psychotic break felt that way when the tape was first released, in it;'s speeded up version. More would have felt something was off with her and then changed their minds once the other tape was released. That didn;t happen.

    Me either. I frankly am just seeing anger that they have the opinion they do and it;s thus being dismissed as a witch hunt, unprofessional and shrill. I'm sorry about that. :twocents:
     
  4. Qrious

    Qrious Active Member

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    That's right. We don't know anything about her clothes. In fact it's not even confirmed whether she was found completely naked or even partially naked at all. As far as I can remember, the statement of her being found naked came from a Chinese video news report's commentary. After that, many reports say she was found naked. But there has been nothing direct or even indirect quote from LAPD's mouth.
     
  5. Newton

    Newton Active Member

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    First time posting-go easy on me.

    Just some thoughts, observations and questions.

    QUESTIONS
    1. Does anyone have a source link to LE stating that she was found unclothed? I can't seem to find any official declaration of that fact.

    2. When she found out that the boy she liked did not like her back (Jan 19th) was she still in Canada or was she in San Diego?

    3. In one of her tumblr posts she says, " Even living in residence I didn’t handle it well."
    What does "in residence" mean? College dorms? Residential mental health community? Shared housing?

    THOUGHTS
    If she was suffering from a psychotic break, it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that she would disrobe. If she did so on the roof, it also follows that she could have thrown her clothing off the edge. According to the following site, wind gusts for dtla on 1/31/13 were up to 10mph & on 2/1/13 were up to 16mph.
    http://weather.mercurynews.com/auto/mercurynews/history/airport/KCQT/2013/2/1/DailyHistory.html
    In that neighborhood, relatively clean, unattended articles of clothing would quickly find a new owner.
    Also there is the possibility that people had gone up to the roof after her disappearance & before the initial search and inadvertently destroyed or taken evidence.

    OBSERVATIONS
    Nothing about the video footage makes me feel that she was seriously trying to hide or escape from anyone real. Someone else mentioned that one would simply hit the door close button and I agree. With no one else in the elevator, I would have hit the lobby button, followed by the door close button.
    It looks to me like she could either be playing around with someone she is friendly with (more animated because she likely doesn't have Adderal in her system at that time of night) or she could be having a break with reality.
    After reading her tumblr posts, I feel either is possible. I've had friends that are bipolar. When medicated properly and in a low stress environment they function perfectly well and don't appear different from anyone else. Take away the meds and/or add stress and things can easily go awry. At her age, it is quite possible that her symptoms have not been fully realized before leaving for California.
    I get anxiety just thinking about her situation:
    1. Travelling Alone
    2. Unfamiliar City
    3. Unrelenting creepers
    4. Losing cell phone
    5. Sketchy neighborhood
    6. The pressure of having to put up a strong front to her parents about being okay.

    I also found it interesting that the Coroner's office referenced getting back the tox results to see what medication she may have been taking and if it was at therapeutic levels.
    I think that there is indication that LE may have not ruled out her mental state as quickly as some people on this board. From the following link, it appears that an adult missing person case gets assigned to homicide and acted upon quickly when certain criteria are present-including "Missing under suspicious circumstances" or "Missing with any condition requiring continuing medication or care" or "Suicidal".
    http://www.lasdhq.org/divisions/leadership-training-div/bureaus/mpp/4-16.pdf

    Whatever happened, I hope she didn't suffer and I hope her loved ones will get the answers they need.
    From her posts she seemed like a smart, funny and cool young person that was in the process of trying to figure out life and how to work with (or around) some not-so-ideal brain chemistry.
     
  6. Montjoy

    Montjoy Inactive

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    While I agree with the rest of what you wrote, I wanted to highlight this passage. Yes, things are not so black-and-white. A person in an acute psychotic episode would not be 100% psychotic 100% of the time at 100% of their activity levels; that is to say, they would not be so different from a sane/mentally healthy person so as to appear as inhuman as a bowl of Jell-O in human form. Such a person could still dress or undress, eat, pee, poop, withdraw money from an ATM, climb a ladder, dance, etc.; s/he could do all of these normal activities whilst believing Jesus or Klapto from the planet Mongotan is telling her/him to do so.

    Even on only philosophical grounds, I would submit that anyone who thinks that a psychotic episode implies a total separation from 'reality' does not believe that such an episode is even possible, unless they think that psychotics are totally non-functioning.
     
  7. Peter Brendt

    Peter Brendt New Member

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    I am still a little bit confused. There are those books (well technically CDs nowadays), like ICD, ECD, DSM. Thousands of experts have worked to compile them, to define symptom catalogs, diagnosis guides and so on. All of them agreed, to make a diagnosis for psychosis, they need to observe the patient tow to three days under clinical conditions, maybe even have to do additional research, interview the family for example. Because as Montjoy said, to some level the function still. even it's a very basic level.
    <modsnip> But then, when I notice this discrepancy a little too loud, that is called rude, so ... err ... now what?
     
  8. kingsway

    kingsway New Member

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    They are not experts at diagnosing someone from just a video with no audio and no other surroundings.

    To say that someone is "probably" sleepwalking/having a psychotic episode/on drugs, is the modern day equivalent to what you just said. Scientific knowledge is about forming hypotheses which can be tested.


    <modnsip>
     
  9. BuzzieCat

    BuzzieCat Member

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    There have been excellent responses to this with which I agree. I did want to add my own little :twocents: - if she's determined to push a bunch of buttons to throw off a potential assailant who might be following her, why would she keep pushing the same buttons in the same sequence each time? When it doesn't work, why doesn't she try another sequence of buttons? The way she pressed the SAME buttons in the SAME sequence over and over again despite the fact that the elevator was not responding as she wished seems to me to indicate that she's having a problem thinking clearly. That could be caused by anything, really - I don't have any way of knowing.

    If she wants to keep someone from following her, why doesn't she try some different buttons? Or just go to the lobby, as another poster mentioned?

    The second time she pushes the sequence of buttons, she doesn't even give the elevator time to react, just immediately steps out of the elevator and walks away in pretty short order.
     
  10. paint

    paint New Member

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    there really isn't anything in the video that couldn't be explained by a little intoxication. this would be TYPICAL of a young person out on the town in los angeles and coming back to the hotel late.

    the experts are brilliant in their field and have much experience, but sometimes i find that means they can't see the forest for the trees. common sense should be in order here.

    jmo
     
  11. Conductor71

    Conductor71 New Member

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    I apologize for coming across as obnoxious, but I am reacting to the fact that several of us have pointed out that we think experts should consider and address any pertinent evidence that impacts their theory or conclusion. It is not an attack on their expertise. It is an expectation that anyone who is going to draw conclusions; claim 0.05 to 100% accuracy; and worse, dismiss any other viewpoint as implausible, needs to back what they are saying with other evidence BEYOND their professional observation. Not one person has acknowledged what we are asking, rather they further avoid answering any questions by either challenging us or disappearing while others go on the attack for them. This comes across as arrogant to me.

    My intent in possibly setting up other threads for expert opinion is based on the observation that we seem to have differing communication standards or expectations for members, so we descend into bickering over things that are not even relevant. I did not intend to marginalize anyone. It is not a judgment statement on the substance of what anyone is contributing, it was merely to say hey took a look at what we are missing out on here. I value having experts here when we can interact in a dynamic way and learn from one another. All I see happening is someone coming in and concluding that they are the final word on the case. If that is the case, then we should just close the entire what happened to EL thread? Our experts have left 0 margin for error, and told us that all other theories our implausible.

    Please note I have not maligned any one's theory as invalid. Nor did I say anything about a witch hunt; but the sink or swim test seems similar to the rigidity of thought and entitlement going on here; not the best example, admittedly. However, using only one self-defined criterion, ignoring other complexities at hand, to determine a fate or cause of death, imho, is really stepping over the line.
     
  12. Doruk

    Doruk New Member

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    They have addressed the evidence and included it in their analysis. <modsnip>
     
  13. Doruk

    Doruk New Member

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    Where's the stats on how TYPICAL this is of a young person out on the town in LA?

    <modsnip>

    jmo
     
  14. paint

    paint New Member

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    well you're right, i don't have stats, but isn't it just a right of passage of young adulthood when one becomes of age and is on their own away from their parentage? does this even need stats??

    i don't mean to be rude - i just don't know if dry statistics are needed here.
     
  15. noodled1

    noodled1 Active Member

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    Thanks well said.

    To me it seems there are two ways to view this. Some it seems have come to a conclusion on a cause of death first and work to find things that support their theory.

    Myself I've worked the opposite way, my theory is I don't know how she died so I'm trying to seek answers to cause of death before trying to sort out how it came to be so. The second way is certainly a lot longer road to travel and not very exciting but it feels more natural to me.

    In doing so I've found I need to give all evidence and lack of evidence equal weight
     
  16. Doruk

    Doruk New Member

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    In fact it isn't a rite of passage. Your statement is an assumption with very little basis in fact. That's why it's necessary to get actual stats. Otherwise it's just your personal opinion, and not a fact.
     
  17. fred&edna

    fred&edna Well-Known Member

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    This is where I read about the body being found nude, and it's not a Chinese video. However, this is not a direct quote from LE.

    "KNX 1070&#8242;s Claudia Peschiutta reports guests were disturbed to learn Lam’s nude body was found inside of one of four large water tanks."


    http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...-downtown-la-hotel/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
     
  18. Conductor71

    Conductor71 New Member

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    I am sorry. Where does anyone address how EL got from the hotel to the water tank when a police dog found no trace of her? Did I miss that?
     
  19. paint

    paint New Member

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    yes it is a rite of passage, that's why age restrictions are placed on drinking. it's a BIG deal when you finally become of age, and one of the first things you celebrate, what, did you grow up amish? stats aren't necessary, but laws are.
     
  20. Montjoy

    Montjoy Inactive

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    RSBM

    Elisa lived in Canada, so she would have been of legal drinking age for 2-3 years (I don't recall what the age is in BC, but it is either 18 or 19), so there would have been no 'coming of age' issue here.
     
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