Elisa Lam - What Happened?

[Sillybilly]

How can you be so sure?

I ask that same question, kingsway.

Elisa is NOT talking to invisible people while in the elevator, so why would we think whomever she was talking to outside the elevator didn't exist. I believe this lends credence to the belief that she was in fact talking to a real person.

JMO

 

[manlet]

I believe she was involved in the occult in some way and was murdered.

 

[bourne]

How can you be so sure?

I used my knowledge of science -- laws of physics and nature -- as well as clinical experience, logic, common sense and perceptual senses. As I said in my post, based on the fact that there is NO shadow and NO person physically present to the right of the elevator door where Elisa bends down and talks animatedly to invisible entity. If you observe closely with you eyes, you will see that when Elisa enters and exits elevator, and when she stands outside the elevator, there are clearly SHADOWS of her on the floor and walls. If there actually was some other person present outside the elevator, surely there would also be shadows of that person on the floor and walls. How does that other person defy the laws of physics and nature? Is s/he in an alternate dimension or universe where these laws don't apply to him/her but only to Elisa? :waitasec:

 

[Peter Brendt]

I used my knowledge of science -- laws of physics and nature -- as well as clinical experience, logic, common sense and perceptual senses. As I said in my post, based on the fact that there is NO shadow and NO person physically present to the right of the elevator door where Elisa bends down and talks animatedly to invisible entity. If you observe closely with you eyes, you will see that when Elisa enters and exits elevator, and when she stands outside the elevator, there are clearly SHADOWS of her on the floor and walls. If there actually was some other person present outside the elevator, surely there would also be shadows of that person on the floor and walls. How does that other person defy the laws of physics and nature? Is s/he in an alternate dimension or universe where these laws don't apply to him/her but only to Elisa? :waitasec:

I love it, when the laws of physics forget on which side the lamp is ... There is no way, you see a shadow if it falls to the outside and you look just through an elevator door.

 

[Sillybilly]

I used my knowledge of science -- laws of physics and nature -- as well as clinical experience, logic, common sense and perceptual senses.

<snip>

Ahh, but not right or wrong ... just different views with none of us knowing the answer. I also have logic and common sense and they are telling me it is very possible that a person could have been standing in front of the other elevator and did not necessarily have to be close to Elisa.

 

[kingsway]

I used my knowledge of science -- laws of physics and nature -- as well as clinical experience, logic, common sense and perceptual senses. As I said in my post, based on the fact that there is NO shadow and NO person physically present to the right of the elevator door where Elisa bends down and talks animatedly to invisible entity. If you observe closely with you eyes, you will see that when Elisa enters and exits elevator, and when she stands outside the elevator, there are clearly SHADOWS of her on the floor and walls. If there actually was some other person present outside the elevator, surely there would also be shadows of that person on the floor and walls. How does that other person defy the laws of physics and nature? Is s/he in an alternate dimension or universe where these laws don't apply to him/her but only to Elisa? :waitasec:

But the person could be standing over near the washrooms, there would be no shadow cast. There's definitely no person physically present 2 feet away from her, but there could be further out. So you can't be sure that there isn't someone out further, where their shadow can't be seen by the camera.

You can't be sure she's not talking to herself either, instead of an "invisible entity".

 

[bourne]

I think that report quotes LE as well as an independent expert who has no connection to the case. I do believe the autopsy is over and they found no concrete signs of death like drowning.



Thank you so much. I have yet to hear from a mental health professional who thinks she was displaying something other than psychosis in the video.

Question. I read that often people who are diagnosed schizophrenic were earlier diagnosed as bipolar. Is this true ? And could we be seeing the first manifestations of psychosis in Elisa?

You're very welcome, gitana1

Your question is an excellent one, and mental health professionals are hesitant to give clear answers to that. As the weblink I provided in earlier post states, there is ambiguity in the differential diagnosis between schizophrenia and bipolar disorders. This is because there is significant overlap in symptoms, treatment, and neuropathophysiology between the two.

E.g., schizophrenia and bipolar disorder share medications. Five atypical antipsychotics originally only approved to treat schizophrenia have now also been approved to treat acute mania. This leads one to believe that these two disorders may share similar neuropathophysiology.

Another example. The positive symptoms of schizophrenia can look like the symptoms in approx. 50% of manic episodes of bipolar patients, particularly those with psychosis, including delusions of grandeur, hallucinations, disorganized speech, paranoia. By the same token, the negative symptoms of schizophrenia can resemble the symptoms of a depressive episode in a bipolar patient -- apathy, extreme emotional withdrawal, lack of affect, low energy, etc.

Furthermore, the two disorders share abnormalities in some of the same neurotransmitter systems. For instance, both depressive episode symptoms of bipolar patients and the negative symptoms of schizophrenia are partially mediated by serotonin. Correspondingly, the positive symptoms of schizophrenia and the manic symptoms of a bipolar patient are mediated in part by excesses of dopamine signalling. Hence, again, the atypical antipsychotics approved for both these disorders work on both the serotonin and the dopamine systems.

To conclude, the diagnosis of either schizophrenia vs. bipolar disorder is chiefly based on the cluster of symptoms presented by the patient to the mental health specialist at a given time or specified period of time. Because these two psychiatric disorders are part of the same cognitive/thought disorder continuum, diagnosis of one vs. the other is not as clear-cut as diagnosing physical illnesses which are quantifiable. For instance, if you have a physical disease such as leukemia, there are physical exams such as blood tests which help determine the exact disease. Such physical tests are not available for mental disorders. Hence the ambiguity. Add the fact that some mental conditions do change over time due to varied external and internal stressors, and the cluster of symptoms that a specialist may have diagnosed as bipolar disorder a few months ago may then changed to appear more like schizophrenia at another period of time. Thus, even more ambiguity.

I hope that answers your question somewhat.

 

[bourne]

But the person could be standing over near the washrooms, there would be no shadow cast. There's definitely no person physically present 2 feet away from her, but there could be further out. So you can't be sure that there isn't someone out further, where their shadow can't be seen by the camera.

You can't be sure she's not talking to herself either, instead of an "invisible entity".

Judging from the varied Cecil Hotel videos showing the washroom and its distance from the elevators, the physical angle by which Elisa leans downward casts doubt that she is looking way over at the washroom.

For 100% certainty, LE forensics investigators should be able to measure by use of shadows, direction of Elisa's eyes/face/body, etc. to determine where exactly Elisa was looking and talking to.

 

[AlphaWolf]

- From reading/getting more and more information....

- who complained about water pressure issues? ( Reading about the hotel, it has had water pressure issues for a long...time)...who complained...where is the report?...or at least the person who contacted maintenance?

- why check inside the tank for obstructuions???.....the pump is on the outside of the tank.....the only thing inside the tank is water....and a syphon pipe....syphon pipe is going to get blocked by water? ( syphons water from the top section of the tank.....not the bottom where the debris is)

Theory....

more and more I keep coming back to the person who found the body....the person who knows how the tanks work...and how to access them.

- somehow Elisa Lam dies in th presence of the "maintenance person" ( does he find her intoxicated? or maybe slightly out of it like on the video?..takes advantage of her?.....)


- only 1 day passes and her family is already looking for her!!!...police are already contacted.....only a matter of time before they search the hotel.

- m person is very familar with the Hotel security/video cameras...person knows he can't get her body out of the hotel to his vehicle without a great possibilty of bieng seen by someone or a camera

- decides to hide body in water tank in desperation....( buy him a little time to decide on a better plan/ wait for LE presence to die down)

Person realizes that he cannot get the body back out.....only a matter of time before the water becomes very contaminated...and or a mandatory water test comes back as positive for contamination.....The water tanks would have to be inspected.

- decides to pretend there was a water pressure problem..and he just happened to find the body.

( the only way out at this point)

 

[kingsway]

Judging from the varied Cecil Hotel videos showing the washroom and its distance from the elevators, the physical angle by which Elisa leans downward casts doubt that she is looking way over at the washroom.

For 100% certainty, LE forensics investigators should be able to measure by use of shadows, direction of Elisa's eyes/face/body, etc. to determine where exactly Elisa was looking and talking to.

Her body maybe, but her eyes may tell a different story, which we can't see clearly. I doubt even forensics investigators can see if there was someone there or not, as you can't see her eyes. Could be she was talking to herself too. There may be more people with strange mannerisms, than there are with severe psychiatric disorders.

She does look up after bending down, so maybe the little people disappeared suddenly, and she's counting the number of unicorns that are going by.

 

[kingsway]

- From reading/getting more and more information....

- who complained about water pressure issues? ( Reading about the hotel, it has had water pressure issues for a long...time)...who complained...where is the report?...or at least the person who contacted maintenance?

- why check inside the tank for obstructuions???.....the pump is on the outside of the tank.....the only thing inside the tank is water....and a syphon pipe....syphon pipe is going to get blocked by water? ( syphons water from the top section of the tank.....not the bottom where the debris is)

Theory....

more and more I keep coming back to the person who found the body....the person who knows how the tanks work...and how to access them.

- somehow Elisa Lam dies in th presence of the "maintenance person" ( does he find her intoxicated? or maybe slightly out of it like on the video?..takes advantage of her?.....)


- only 1 day passes and her family is already looking for her!!!...police are already contacted.....only a matter of time before they search the hotel.

- m person is very familar with the Hotel security/video cameras...person knows he can't get her body out of the hotel to his vehicle without a great possibilty of bieng seen by someone or a camera

- decides to hide body in water tank in desperation....( buy him a little time to decide on a better plan/ wait for LE presence to die down)

Person realizes that he cannot get the body back out.....only a matter of time before the water becomes very contaminated...and or a mandatory water test comes back as positive for contamination.....The water tanks would have to be inspected.

- decides to pretend there was a water pressure problem..and he just happened to find the body.

( the only way out at this point)

If Elisa disappeared in the evening though, would that mean the maintenance person was off work at the time?

 

[noodled1]

I used my knowledge of science -- laws of physics and nature -- as well as clinical experience, logic, common sense and perceptual senses. As I said in my post, based on the fact that there is NO shadow and NO person physically present to the right of the elevator door where Elisa bends down and talks animatedly to invisible entity. If you observe closely with you eyes, you will see that when Elisa enters and exits elevator, and when she stands outside the elevator, there are clearly SHADOWS of her on the floor and walls. If there actually was some other person present outside the elevator, surely there would also be shadows of that person on the floor and walls. How does that other person defy the laws of physics and nature? Is s/he in an alternate dimension or universe where these laws don't apply to him/her but only to Elisa? :waitasec:

Not at all. totally dependent on the light source casting those shadows.

 

[bourne]

Not at all. totally dependent on the light source casting those shadows.

Why would an indoor light source change in the short time period that Elisa was in and out of the elevator?

 

[bourne]

Her body maybe, but her eyes may tell a different story, which we can't see clearly. I doubt even forensics investigators can see if there was someone there or not, as you can't see her eyes. Could be she was talking to herself too. There may be more people with strange mannerisms, than there are with severe psychiatric disorders.

She does look up after bending down, so maybe the little people disappeared suddenly, and she's counting the number of unicorns that are going by.

:floorlaugh: We'll have to agree to disagree then.

P.S. Not laughing at you, but with you on this. Very intriguing case.

 

[AlphaWolf]

If Elisa disappeared in the evening though, would that mean the maintenance person was off work at the time?

I'm not sure of the working hours there?...

maybe the Perp met her early in the day while working and they decided to hang out later ? she may ben drinking with the perp , may have been drugged?...

 

[Borris]

If Elisa disappeared in the evening though, would that mean the maintenance person was off work at the time?

What if he's a resident that does plumbing/maintenance work to offset his rent? He'd be there all day, on-call 24/7 - just what you'd want from a handyman.

 

[gitana1]

I chose homicide. It's hard for someone, to go up on a roof, undress, drown oneself in a water tank, then get out to get rid of the clothes in a way, they aren't found anywhere, then climb back into the tank ...

Hi Peter. Thanks for your response. Question though: You said you chose homicide because it would be hard for a person to get rid of clothes such that they cannot be found, once they already got onto the roof, got undressed, got into the tank and drowned. But since we don;t know whether LE found her clothes or not, how can you be so certain that it was homicide?

Also, what if she took her clothes off before she got onto the roof? Removing one's clothes happens quite often to people in psychotic states, apparently.

You're very welcome, gitana1

Your question is an excellent one, and mental health professionals are hesitant to give clear answers to that. As the weblink I provided in earlier post states, there is ambiguity in the differential diagnosis between schizophrenia and bipolar disorders. This is because there is significant overlap in symptoms, treatment, and neuropathophysiology between the two.

E.g., schizophrenia and bipolar disorder share medications. Five atypical antipsychotics originally only approved to treat schizophrenia have now also been approved to treat acute mania. This leads one to believe that these two disorders may share similar neuropathophysiology.

Another example. The positive symptoms of schizophrenia can look like the symptoms in approx. 50% of manic episodes of bipolar patients, particularly those with psychosis, including delusions of grandeur, hallucinations, disorganized speech, paranoia. By the same token, the negative symptoms of schizophrenia can resemble the symptoms of a depressive episode in a bipolar patient -- apathy, extreme emotional withdrawal, lack of affect, low energy, etc.

Furthermore, the two disorders share abnormalities in some of the same neurotransmitter systems. For instance, both depressive episode symptoms of bipolar patients and the negative symptoms of schizophrenia are partially mediated by serotonin. Correspondingly, the positive symptoms of schizophrenia and the manic symptoms of a bipolar patient are mediated in part by excesses of dopamine signalling. Hence, again, the atypical antipsychotics approved for both these disorders work on both the serotonin and the dopamine systems.

To conclude, the diagnosis of either schizophrenia vs. bipolar disorder is chiefly based on the cluster of symptoms presented by the patient to the mental health specialist at a given time or specified period of time. Because these two psychiatric disorders are part of the same cognitive/thought disorder continuum, diagnosis of one vs. the other is not as clear-cut as diagnosing physical illnesses which are quantifiable. For instance, if you have a physical disease such as leukemia, there are physical exams such as blood tests which help determine the exact disease. Such physical tests are not available for mental disorders. Hence the ambiguity. Add the fact that some mental conditions do change over time due to varied external and internal stressors, and the cluster of symptoms that a specialist may have diagnosed as bipolar disorder a few months ago may then changed to appear more like schizophrenia at another period of time. Thus, even more ambiguity.

I hope that answers your question somewhat.

Yes, thank you very much for your expertise. It's a confusing science to me!!!!

 

[Xavier]

I'm not sure of the working hours there?...

maybe the Perp met her early in the day while working and they decided to hang out later ? she may ben drinking with the perp , may have been drugged?...

One of EL's male friends said she did'nt smoke or drink.

 

[catatonia]

Sometimes "special" circumstances bring out unexpected character traits in people.

 

[Nickfalzone]

Homicide/Preplanned - although not necessarily with a specific person in mind. I believe this may be the work of a serial killer(s), not someone that specifically targeted Elisa Lam. She was targeted, but one of many targets for the killer(s).

Based upon the little amt of evidence that has been made available, I've concluded the following:

She was staying on the 4th floor, but went much further up in the building to either a.) meet someone in their room b.) check out the roof/skyline or c.) use the washroom facilities as 4s were busy (although why up to 14? why not simply 5, or 6 or something).

- Conclusion - she went to meet someone on the 14th or 15th floor and they went to the roof. There were 2 killers involved. 1 played the good cop, the other bad cop. She went to the roof with the good cop, had a beer, but then something interrupted their session, they amicably split and she made her way down to the elevator on 14. For some reason she did not have her contacts in - or lost her glasses during this event. She walks into the elevator calmly, thinking she was lucky to get out of the previous awkward situation, but not overly anxious about it. While in the elevator, she hears a noise that induces fear. My guess is that this is the bad cop, who is playing hotel security/maintenance. She hears him yelling that she should not have been on the roof. He is down the hall to her right. To her left several feet is the good cop. She makes hand wringing gestures to the bad cop, trying to explain why she was either a. went to the roof, or b. used the shower facility on a floor other than her own. Her hand wringing gestures imply mopping up a floor with towels - was there a flood in her room and that was her excuse? She concludes conversation with bad cop, feeling slightly relieved. Good cop (at 1:25) reaches into her pocket to take her room card - telling bad cop that he will take her back to her room. Her strange movements - walking backwards, hitting all buttons in elevator, etc. are due to instructions given to her by either good of bad cop. They tell her where to stand outside the elevator, to go in and hit all the middle floors, etc. They possibly do this to stall the elevator, but not sure of exact reasoning. They don't want her in elevator because they know of camera - they can't get in with camera on. Bad cop concludes discussion, and she walks off left with good cop. He leads her somewhere with a good deal of privacy where rape/death occurs, possibly with the assistance of the bad cop. Both good and bad cop are well aware of roof/water tank situation, as well as security cams, roof alarm, elevator workings. Elisa probably "met" good cop prior to her arrival - he was an internet friend she had planned to meet. He and bad cop knew of her arrival, and planned event. Water tank was a backup plan, created because their original plan required more time than law enforcement allowed (quick arrival due to Elisa's lack of contact with family).

Some weird coincidences that may play a part -

Lost her cellphone only a couple days before she went missing?
What happened to her glasses/contacts? Clearly she is blind in elevator without them.

Just some thoughts. Hopefully toxicology reports will be in soon to possibly shed further light upon the case.