Elisa Lam - What Happened?

Discussion in 'Elisa Lam' started by gitana1, Mar 2, 2013.

?

Why did Elisa die?

  1. Homicide/crime of opportunity - Murder due to chance encounter with someone on the day she died

    162 vote(s)
    47.4%
  2. Homicide/preplanned - Elisa was lured to her death in a scheme planned before the day she died

    46 vote(s)
    13.5%
  3. Accidental death - related to an altered mental state: drug induced, psychosis, sleep walking, etc.

    86 vote(s)
    25.1%
  4. Suicide - Elisa intended to end her life due to mental issues/other

    7 vote(s)
    2.0%
  5. Occult/supernatural/conspiracy - related to occult, supernatural phenomena or gov./other conspiracy

    5 vote(s)
    1.5%
  6. Unsure/Do not know

    36 vote(s)
    10.5%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Nickfalzone

    Nickfalzone New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I agree. One detail that just came to mind though is a reference I saw somewhere to her having a couple (non-prescribed) RX pills in her pocket. Maybe they were found in her room (clearly her pocket would have emptied out sitting on the bottom of the water tank). One of the medications I recall was an ADD medication, which typically are amphetamines. ADD drugs can have very unpleasant side effects, including paranoia and schizophrenia type symptoms. Out of all the meds listed, this is the one that stands out to me as a possible reason for the mental breakdown. It's either that, or being away from home triggered some latent neurological/neurochemical imbalance. All things considered, I still say murder.
     


  2. 2Hip2BSquare

    2Hip2BSquare Former Member

    Messages:
    2,694
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The Stimulant she was on was Dexedrine expansule - I took this when I was 15 and by far it helped me significantly get through my depressive episodes as a BP2 female. It is extended release and unless abused it typically does not cause one to hallucinate etc. she even was on seroquel, an amazing antipsychotic I have also utilized myself to help me sleep when manic. So she had the medication seroquel in her system in the tox report, which indicates to me a low likelihood of her having a psychotic break. In fact I can say that at one my most successful point in my mental disability I took Dexedrine and welbutrine in the morning and then a seroquel at night, exactly what Elisa was doing. The only loose pills she had were ibuprofens. The welbutrine, dexedrine, and seroquel were all used as prescribed and were properly prescribed IMHO for a female with BP2 such as Elisa. The detectives counted the pills in the bottle vs how many we're listed on her prescription. Everything checked out. She was taking them as prescribed.

    The rape and fingernail kits were never sent out.
     
  3. December

    December Verified insider - Kathy Jones case

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    5,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I checked I don't know how she wound up the way she was found. After reading this entire thread, I still do not know. I don't know if "accidental drowning" is any kind of explanation, but I am glad she wasn't ruled a suicide.

    Some people ALWAYS wear a watch. So, I think it is possible that was why she had it on even to go (we think) to the bathroom.

    However, was Elisa ever troubled by missing time? Wearing a watch can help with that.

    I thought at first maybe she was on the roof and something scared her, so she tried to hide. But, I do not think she would strip to the skin and throw all of her things in the tank. Especially if she was out of her head, it seems in that case something would not have made it to the tank.

    Did she have any jewelry at all other than the watch? Was she known to wear any jewelry other than the watch?
     
  4. 2Hip2BSquare

    2Hip2BSquare Former Member

    Messages:
    2,694
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Her watch and key card were in there along with her sandles, black underwear, hoodie, t shirt, and shorts.

    "When interviewed by Sing Tao Daily, a Canada-based Chinese newspaper, Lam's father expressed his strong disappointment at the report, saying, "How could Lam have access to the rooftop and climb up the water tank? WhatÂ’s the exact cause of her death? These questions remain unclear."

    In response to the reports Lam was allegedly suffering from bipolar disorder, her father replied he believed she was a smart and clever girl who could not have been suffering from any mental disorder.

    In addition, according to Lam's father, the Cecil Hotel where the accident took place has changed hands, but whether the deal has something to do with the Lam case is unknown."

    http://www.china.org.cn/world/2013-06/26/content_29238312.htm
     
  5. December

    December Verified insider - Kathy Jones case

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    5,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    2Hip2BeSquare, I am wondering if she was wearing earrings that night. And if the earrings weren't found on her body, then maybe someone else has them. I guess no one will know if the police have dropped the case.
     
  6. 2Hip2BSquare

    2Hip2BSquare Former Member

    Messages:
    2,694
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't think she had been wearing earrings. Thing is, earrings Defo wernt found in the cistern with her. I've checked pictures of her and I've found one that looks like she might be wearing earrings, but the rest her ears are bare without jewelry. So I'm guessing she probably put on jewelry for occasion and not regularly - she was very much into fashion and design, so I could see how she would wear jewelry to costume an outfit and then take it off later that evening maybe. Jmoo though.
     
  7. 2Hip2BSquare

    2Hip2BSquare Former Member

    Messages:
    2,694
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    We don't need a lawyer. I just need to drive north and show up to the superior court in LA and tell them that the LASD aren't providing the police report. Regardless, Police Reports are ALWAYS open to citizens as long as they pay for the prints.
     
  8. December

    December Verified insider - Kathy Jones case

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    5,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am starting to lean toward this was a planned event. Maybe Elisa had some problems with her glasses or meds or whatever in addition to what happened, but I do not believe she climbed into that darned tank after stripping off all of her clothing and watch. She would've likely dropped something that would be missing. Or her key card would still be in her pocket.

    But, I don't believe they just randomly stashed her in the tank. I believe that was the intent all along. Probably they got her to walk most of the way by talking about her habit of taking photos from roofs. She may have even climbed up to the highest point (not on the tanks) herself. Either fully cognizant (but deceived) or given something like alcohol that interacted badly with her medication or something else to make her compliant.

    She was murdered by drowning.

    There is an occult ritual of drowning someone in cold water (must be cold) and then drinking the water.
     
  9. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,187
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The key card could've simply fallen out while she was submerged. It was found in the bottom of the tank.

    The one thing I found odd was that her wristwatch was found in the tank, but not attached to her wrist.

    If she did commit suicide, she would've dumped all her clothes into the tank; and she would've removed her watch from her wrist. She would've done so in a ritualistic way. Someone mentioned before that it's not uncommon for people to clean their surroundings before suicide: folding clothes, etc. Putting each article of clothing into the tank before ultimately entering that same tank to take your own life makes sense to me.

    If she got in on her own accord, without the intent of suicide, she would've left her clothes strewn about outside the tank (jmo) and most likely wouldn't have taken her watch off.

    The question I have is whether she could've entered the tank fully clothed, and if her clothes could've been removed from her body. She was in the tank for weeks before her body was found. Could her body have changed positions, causing the clothes to be removed while she was submerged? Even her watch?
     
  10. December

    December Verified insider - Kathy Jones case

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    5,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I don't see how her watch could've come off. The hoodie as well seems just too heavy to have come off in the tank. that would've also kept her tshirt on due to being under the hoodie. maybe her shorts and panties could've come off... idk... Her shoes had straps, so maybe they would've stayed on or maybe not, idk.

    The hoodie, btw, was still wet when her autopsy was done while her other clothing was dry. So, it was a really heavy one, I guess, even though it doesn't so much look like it in the video.

    This is just my opinion, but I think she might have been washed off before they dumped her into the tank. they'd just need some soap or scrub and a small amount of water since they were about to dump her into a tank filled with water. So, any evidence on her might have been gone that night.

    I have a weird feeling about this case. As in something really bad happened, but no one will ever know since all the evidence is long washed away. That upsets me so much.
     
  11. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,187
    Likes Received:
    1,174
    Trophy Points:
    113
    All valid points. I did notice, though, that she's wearing a zip-up hoodie -- and in the video, it's zipped quite far down her neck. If it were a pull-over, then I'd say it'd be impossible for it to be removed from the water, but since it's a zip-up, I think important to notice.

    One thing that'd be critical would be whether or not the hoodie was found zipped up or unzipped. I think it's important because, in my uneducated opinion, even a circulating current of a water tank would be unable to unzip a jacket/hoodie. If it was still zipped, we'd know that she most likely entered the tank fully clothed, which would also indicate that she (most likely) wasn't sexually assualted.
     
  12. December

    December Verified insider - Kathy Jones case

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    5,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Userid, good point about the zip on the hoodie.

    I wonder how much the water really moves in one of those tanks?
     
  13. Nickfalzone

    Nickfalzone New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I still say we need to pursue the police report. These 2 links make it clear that Government Code 6254 guarantees the public access to the police report (possibly with some redactions).

    http://www.lapdonline.org/i_want_to_know/content_basic_view/36329

    http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the_lapd/content_basic_view/9136#1

    Can contact them by phone to make request:

    "A public records request for information from the Los Angeles Police Department can be started by contacting the Los Angeles Police Department Discovery Section at 213-978-2100."

    Our limitation here is the following note on the request:

    "Proof of relationship for parents of minor involved party or the spouse or relative of a deceased involved party"

    However, the GC6254 overrules that, and should be pursued:

    "You will want to include the following information to ensure the scope of the request is understood and clear enough for personnel to determine if we have the records you are requesting.
    The date(s) of the record
    The subject of the record
    A clear and specific description of the record
    Any additional information that helps staff identify the record
    Your complete contact information, so that we may notify you when your request is available
    Prompt access to public records is required by the CPRA (Government Code 6253). The 10– day period mentioned in the act is not a legal deadline for producing records. The 10-days allows the agency to review records, if it is not clear that they are public records. As soon as a determination is made, it will be at that time the records shall be released.

    The rights under the CPRA provide for the inspection of public records or to obtain copies of identifiable records, it does not compel the agency to create lists or reports in response to the request.

    Under Government Code 6253(b), Agencies may charge for the "direct costs" for providing copies of an identifiable record."
     
  14. December

    December Verified insider - Kathy Jones case

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    5,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, we need the police report very badly. The autopsy is good, but all it really tells me is they don't know how the heck she got in the tank. Well, it does tell us she was taking her medicine (as well as they were able to test). And they didn't find any obvious poisoning. Or illegal drugs.

    I think when a M.E. says uninjured, they mean she isn't beaten up really bad. She could have little cuts.
     
  15. December

    December Verified insider - Kathy Jones case

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    5,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    However, I must say, if the lid was on that tank then Elisa had some help having an 'accident' because it lifts off. It is not hinged. I found a photo one of the Chinese investigators took that showed it on the tank (after Elisa was discovered, but before ChelleBelle's photo which shows the tanks finally have locks.. So it shows it has a handle and lifts off). And there are photos aplenty with it off showing NO hinges. No gust of wind could possible close it because to remove it, you take it off and set it aside. (ETA, see these photos in post 848 in the 3rd E.L. thread, now locked).

    Granted, someone could have found it off and sitting out on its own and then returned it to its rightful place on the tank if it had been left off. I guess the maintenance man could say how he found it, but someone could've done that before he ever got there. IMO, that would be the murderer. BUT, it could be another person.

    I don't know if the police report will clear up these issues because it seems the police had little interest in the tanks until the maintenance man found Elisa. I could be wrong, but they said they just didn't think anyone would go in those. Granted, she was a missing person then, but that was a heck of an assumption. MURDERERS love hiding people in places people normally don't go. And, sadly, many missing persons wind up being found dead. But, maybe the LAPD was absolutely sure she was alive somewhere and maybe not even in L.A. I wonder if the police report would explain their thinking at all...

    Then, there is the mystery of the dogs. In the K9 thread, Oriah is puzzled as to why the dogs did not alert the officers to the tanks. He said even if Elisa was dead (recently dead) and carried by another person, it is likely the dogs should have gone as close to the tanks as they could (ETA and alerted that they'd found her). He believed the search was recent enough that enough of her scent ought to have been present. Which, IMO, rules out her walking on her own feet (under duress or voluntarily or out of her mind psychotic) on the roof during her stay. The only explanation that I can come up with is she was carried AND the dogs weren't taken all reasonable places on the roof (reasonable meaning a place you could take a dog without endangering the animal). I apologize if I got something wrong he said.

    Also, this is talking about a regular tracking dog not any kind of special cadaver dog. Just a trained dog looking for Elisa's scent. Her scent wouldn't instantly change the second she died which is, I think, why such a dog would be able to find her in the tank... unless the dog got nowhere near the tank at all. He looked at the photos, and I think he said the base of the platform is close enough. So up no ladder, not on the tanks... just near them.
     
  16. December

    December Verified insider - Kathy Jones case

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    5,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Among Elisa's possessions were two loose prescription Dexedrine capsules. I did read she, at one time, had a prescription for these. So, they might be her pills left over from then. However, I am wondering... if investigators find a couple of loose capsules does anyone sciency test them to make sure they still contain what they're supposed to contain? Because while these might be her pills she brought from home, they might also be something someone gave her. Obviously, she didn't take them. But, she may well have intended not to ever take them having enough sense in her head not to take pills from any old place. Since she died, she never got to throw them away. Those two pills just bug me.

    Also, the elevator these was a theory heavily discussed in threads 2 & 3 that she may have disturbed the wrong kind of person. It got derailed because the poster called Elisa 'submissive'. But, an apology IS submissive to anti-social, crazy, murderer type. To a normal person, it is her just being polite. She is a little stubborn and knows she did not intentionally do anything wrong. So, she apologizes and tries to explain about the elevator. To a halfway sane person, this is NORMAL and POLITE behavior. She is only saying, 'sorry, it was not my attention to disturb you. this elevator won't work.' To a psycho, she just admitted her guilt. And the explanation is trying to avoid that guilt (because the psycho has used this tactic when he did way worse stuff absolutely on purpose to do more than annoy a person). Elisa is used to being around normal people who see an apology is a halfway sane way. Even if they do not accept it, the worse they will do is stomp off in a huff. Since this is a stranger, oh well. But, this is a crazy murderer type, and when people irritate him even slightly bad things happen to those people. He isn't wearing a sign to tell her this. Also, if he whips out a gun, a lot of people would get submissive with a quickness. Now, it would be better to scream, but fear causes irrational behavior.
     
  17. Nickfalzone

    Nickfalzone New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    One of the major questions that has never been answered is what state her room was in when the hotel or police first went inside? Like, was her wallet and cellphone there? Laptop? Were all her belongings accounted for? Were there any signs of distress or a struggle? Did she have flooding in her room (some have said that there was flooding on the 4th floor that night)? Were her glasses or contacts in a place, like lost under the bed, that she was unable to quickly find them before she went up to the 14th floor?

    I still, for the life of me, cannot imagine that even a psychotic Elisa would walk her way up to the roof, find the water tanks, go to the least accessible one, step up a rickety ladder, and squeeze herself in the top. How would she even know if it was a freshwater/cool tank and she wasn't stepping into a hot water heater or something. I know, I know, mental illness can cause all kinds of irrational choices, but with my knowledge of psychology/psychiatry (which is fairly immense) I have a great deal of difficulty pinning this death as an "accidental misadventure". I really cannot imagine that is what ultimately led to her being dead in the tank. I know that mysterious deaths are not always solved, but this one just seems to be completely lacking in detail of what detective work was done.
     
  18. Montjoy

    Montjoy Inactive

    Messages:
    5,230
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Belated thanks for a terrific post, and I hope that most of us agree with your final statement, at the least.
     
  19. Nickfalzone

    Nickfalzone New Member

    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm glad that individual has found peace by writing this, but unfortunately many of his conclusions have been rebutted:

    1.) A. we have no evidence that she was actually diagnosed as bi-polar. Her psychiatrist did not confirm or deny this, and her Father absolutely rejected it. Do you really think her family would let her father go on the news and say she wasn't bipolar, if they knew otherwise? B. And what psych professionals are you referring to? There is definitely not an abundance of psychological review of her mental state in the video. There is speculation by a wide variety of folks, but until I read several mental health professionals conclusively state that she was having a psychotic meltdown, I refuse to believe that.

    2.) Do we know how long it was between her elevator video and her death in the tank? No, we don't, and neither do investigators. It could have been minutes, hours or even a day or two.

    3.) The only surveillance that would have caught an assailant would be from the elevator and potentially the lobby. Once she left the eye of the elevator on 14, she was no longer being recorded.

    4.) Another conclusion lacking evidence, some of which I have seen to the contrary.

    5.) She would still re-consider going up there when she saw the door that said do-not-enter and had an alarm on it (turned off of course). She did not seem like the type of person that would be breaking rules like going on the roof of a hotel, when it was clear she should not do so.

    6.) She was found naked in a water tank, with clothing apparently at the bottom. As many have stated here previously, between the amount of time of death and she discovery of her body, a great deal of evidence could have been washed away.

    7.) Does not preclude murder.

    8.) Virtually impossible is a complete guess on your part. Regardless, it has been shown that it would be possible to drop her body down to the tank from the maintenance building.

    9.) Does not preclude murder.
     
  20. December

    December Verified insider - Kathy Jones case

    Messages:
    2,288
    Likes Received:
    5,220
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The law of physics absolutely do not tell me that someone could carry a not dead yet (Elisa drowned) up the ladder. People can do this. Not everyone. But, such people exist. Soldiers pick up and carry grown men loaded with gear. Thet carry then over rough terrain while under fire. A little lady like Elisa would be a snap, ladder or not. Also, humans can use tools to accomplish tasks. We do not know how this was accomplished, but I believe it was.

    I would rather believe in terrible accident because murder is THE WORST. I have lost people I love in every way possible. Murder is the worst. So, if I see proof Elisa just stumbled into the tank for who knows what reason, I will be relieved for her.

    Now, the 'Drive pilgrimage'. I think it's likely Elisa decided to visit some sites this movie, starring her favorite actor Ryan Gosling, was filmed. People might visit those sites and see if anyone remembers her. If they wanted to do some sleuthing IRL that wouldn't grieve her friends and family more. Be really nice and professional, not pushy. Some places there will be no one to speak to, I'm sure. But, still. I think she might have done this since she had friends who also liked this movie and R.G. So, it'd be really cool for her blog.

    ETA I'm not saying a soldier did it, btw. This is just a well known example of what someone can do.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice