Ethiopian Air ET302, Boeing 737 crashes - 157 souls - 10 March 2019

Discussion in 'Up to the Minute' started by MsFacetious, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    From Airliners I understand one of these upgrades cost $100,000 which a budget airline for example is not going to be able to afford to add on if it wasn’t deemed to be essential.

    I wish this was easy to find out I don’t know if customers could find out by contacting the airline they are flying with. The big question for me is what happens to the planes already built if it flies again can these safety upgrades be retrofitted. I still would not fly this plane regardless of what upgrades it has I have lost confidence in the safety of it.
     
  2. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Boeing will change its rules to make an optional cockpit warning light compulsory, in the wake of the deadly Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines crashes on its jets.

    The 'AoA Disagree' alert warns pilots when the plane's critical 'angle of attack' readings may be wrong.

    But some Boeing aircraft were not equipped with it as it was not required by regulators.

    Faulty angle of attack sensors were blamed in part for the Indonesia disaster last October, which killed 189 people.

    Boeing says optional warning light will be fitted as standard | Daily Mail Online

    I am glad this can be retrofitted but I don’t know if it will be sufficient enough to prevent another tragedy.
     
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  3. Justice101

    Justice101 Well-Known Member

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    Greed. So very sad.

    I wonder if Airbus charged for safety upgrades too?
     
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  4. 1&2&3

    1&2&3 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks gregjrichards for the information in the above ^^article.

    What sad and horrible news that any company would send a pilot out with a new aircraft and no training! However, on the same hand, with the plane sold as no new training needed, why would the executives think to spend money to train?

    It would seem to me, if I was in charge of purchasing these new style planes, I would want at least several tested out to see how they react.

    I can see huge lawsuits coming. There are too many slip ups in getting this plane in the air by Boeing. Selling the plane by saying no new training needed was false and caused the deaths of all these souls. Manuals not being distributed before pilots took the plane up is ridiculous.

    To me, it would be similar to putting a person who has always driven an automatic car, into a standard car, and telling them to drive.
     
  5. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    Um, why are they selling a defective plane in the first place?

    I hope the execs get tried for murder
     
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  6. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't fly in any plane whose manufacturer's chief concern was money, not safety.
     
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  7. Reachingfornettles

    Reachingfornettles Well-Known Member

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  8. Justice101

    Justice101 Well-Known Member

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    It's even more complicated than that. The FAA allows Boeing to self-certify some of the tasks for a new model in some instances.
     
  9. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Indonesia's national carrier has cancelled an order for 49 of the Boeing jets which have crashed twice in five months.

    Garuda said its passengers have 'lost trust and no longer have confidence' in the Boeing 737 Max 8 jet after a combined 346 passengers died in air disasters in Indonesia and Ethiopia.

    The end of the $4.9bn (£3.7bn) order, believed to be the first such cancellation for the jet, deals a fresh blow to the Boeing plane after governments across the globe blocked it from their airspace.

    Garuda, which ordered 50 aircraft is also talking to Boeing about whether or not to return the one plane it has already received.

    Indonesian airline scraps order for 49 Boeing 737 Max 8 planes | Daily Mail Online

    This will be the first of many cancellations I predict.
     
  10. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Deleted wrong thread.
     
  11. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    Pilots transitioning to the Boeing 737 Max 8 aircraft from older 737 models were given a short, self-administered online course that made no mention of a new system now at the center of two crash investigations, pilots' unions spokesmen for two American carriers told CNN.

    Pilots of Southwest Airlines and American Airlines took courses -- lasting between 56 minutes and three hours -- that highlighted differences between the Max 8 and older 737s, but did not explain the new maneuvering characteristics augmentation system, know as MCAS, the spokesmen said. "The course was not instructor-led. It was self-administered".

    "MCAS was installed in the aircraft and Boeing didn't disclose that to the pilots".

    Boeing has not responded to multiple requests for comment.

    737 Max 8 pilots transitioned with self-administered online course - CNN
     
  12. JudgeJudi

    JudgeJudi Well-Known Member

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    In the wake of the fatal crashes, some pilots are demanding additional training on the 737 Max series aircraft, in the form of both ground school and flight simulator time.

    "This is ridiculous," said Captain Tajer, a representative of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents 15,000 American Airlines pilots. "If you're going to have equipment on the airplane that we didn't know about, and we're going to be responsible for battling it if it fails, then we need to have hands-on experience."

    The self-administered transition course for American Airlines pilots was a 56-minute online course, Tajer said, which he completed on his iPad. It was broken up into four broad sections, including a general description of changes to the aircraft, its engines, and its instrument panel. But an explanation or even an acknowledgement of the MCAS system was again missing, Tajer said.

    "(The transition course) usually works. It works for us. We have pilots who have a lot of experience. When I need to do a little more study, I know where to go. And if I was to go to that place, the MCAS wasn't even there."

    Boeing develops the courses with each individual airline, which is why Southwest's transition training course was longer than the course for American Airlines. But Trevino and Tajer say both failed to mention or explain the MCAS system.

    On November 27, one month after the Lion Air crash, the American Airlines pilots' union met with Boeing representatives in Texas to convey "serious concerns about the issues raised by the Lion Air 737 Max accident and ongoing investigation," according to a statement from the union.

    737 Max 8 pilots transitioned with self-administered online course - CNN

    Now that Garuda has cancelled 49 of its Max 8 jets on order, it will be interesting to see if others follow suit. Boeing may have been a bit premature in stating that it will continue its production rate of 52 aircraft per month.
     
  13. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    79B9A0F4-F7C6-462C-B6CD-CED8850E7BA4.jpeg 2170573F-DB9F-464B-A14B-BEC8131163E9.jpeg

    Ethiopian Airlines
    @flyethiopian
    21 Mar

    “Ethiopian Airlines pilots completed the Boeing recommended and FAA approved differences training from the B-737 NG aircraft to the B-737 MAX aircraft before the phase in of the B-737-8 MAX fleet to the Ethiopian operation and before they start flying the B-737-8 MAX.”

    “Ethiopian Airlines expresses its disappointment on the following wrong reporting of the @nytimes titled “Ethiopian Airlines Had a Max 8 Simulator, but Pilot on Doomed Flight Didn’t Receive Training”

    “Ethiopian Airlines strongly refutes all the baseless and factually incorrect allegations written in the @washingtonpost dated March 21, 2019.”

    Ethiopian Airlines (@flyethiopian) on Twitter
     
  14. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Intense Pressure Cooker’

    Inside Boeing, the race was on. Roughly six months after the project’s launch, engineers were already documenting the differences between the Max and its predecessor, meaning they already had preliminary designs for the Max — a fast turnaround, according to an engineer who worked on the project.

    “The timeline was extremely compressed,” the engineer said. “It was go, go, go.”

    One former designer on the team working on flight controls for the Max said the group had at times produced 16 technical drawings a week, double the normal rate. “They basically said, ‘We need something now,’” the designer said.

    A technician who assembles wiring on the Max said that in the first months of development, rushed designers were delivering sloppy blueprints to him. He was told that the instructions for the wiring would be cleaned up later in the process, he said.

    Boeing Was ‘Go, Go, Go’ to Beat Airbus With the 737 Max

    Very disturbing reading indeed but not a surprise. A bet lawyers will be utilising information like this in the future.
     
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  15. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Ethiopian Airlines CEO Tewolde Gebremariam said it was important not to confuse safety-critical equipment with optional items.

    “A Toyota is imported with all the necessary equipment to drive, like the engine and the wheels, but with air conditioning and the radio optional,” Tewolde said.

    “When Boeing supplies aircraft there are items which are mandatory for safety and then there are optional items,” he added, noting the angle of attack indicator was optional.

    Some media reports have questioned whether having this installed may have helped the cockpit crew regain control of flight 302, which crashed near Addis Ababa on March 10 killing all 157 aboard.

    Tewolde rejected this, adding: “The angle of attack indicator was on the optional list along with the inflight entertainment system.”

    Ethiopian Airlines defends its Boeing planes after deadly crash | Reuters
     
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  16. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Pilots from several airlines met with Boeing executives in Renton, Wash., on Saturday to discuss proposed changes to the 737 Max, two of which have crashed in recent months.

    The meeting on Saturday, with about a dozen pilots and trainers, was part of Boeing’s effort to manage the crisis set off by the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in October and the crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 under similar circumstances this month. Boeing and people briefed on the meeting confirmed it.

    In addition to reviewing proposed modifications to new anti-stall software and cockpit displays, pilots from five airlines strapped into flight simulators to see how they would have handled the situation that is believed to have brought down Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia, according to two people briefed on the meeting.

    In each case, the pilots using the simulators were able to land the plane safely.

    At the 737 Max Factory, Pilots Simulate New Boeing Software
     
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  17. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    The anti-stall system that pilots battled before the crash of a Lion Air-operated Boeing 737 Max in October was also likely to have been activated before 157 people were killed this month on a flight of the same model leaving Addis Ababa, the Ethiopian Airlines chief executive has said.

    The new feature of the 737 Max, the manoeuvring characteristics augmentation system (MCAS), has been highlighted by an investigation into the previous crash, in which 189 people were killed when their plane went down in the Java Sea off Indonesia 12 minutes after takeoff.

    Ethiopian’s boss, Tewolde GebreMariam, told the Wall Street Journal he believed MCAS was also “to the best of our knowledge” in play for the brief duration of flight 302 from Addis Ababa.

    Anti-stall system was 'in play' on Ethiopian's Boeing 737 Max
     
  18. watcher9

    watcher9 Well-Known Member

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  19. JanetElaine

    JanetElaine Well-Known Member

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  20. JanetElaine

    JanetElaine Well-Known Member

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