EVERY Possibility...

s_finch said:
Our laser light is at the bottom and it's easy to jump over. However, if someone gets in our garage and attempts to get into our house, they still have to go through a double locked house door. What exactly was the door like at the R's that lead from the garage into the house??
Yes, but PR said in the interview w/ LE ... (for what that may or may not have been worth) that she was unclear on whether or not that door was locked on the evening of the 25th.

The absurdity that keeps the battle going inside of my head is the old saying: "Locks are for honest people." If one wants access to any place, a mere lock will not keep them out.... In this particular case, when using logical deductive reasoning, there is little to no evidence that there was indeed an intruder who chose to use dishonest means of entry. :(

I am beginning to come to the conclusion that this case is a bungled mess of BLUNDERS IN BOULDER:



LE failed to secure a crime scene.
LE and DA failed to properly investigate and they leaked every pertinent detail of the case, with them ultimately falling into the hands of the media.
The R's either: failed to "stage an intruder crime scene in a believable manner"
or they failed miserably in cooperating with LE and the DA's office in both securing the crime scene and offering assisitance requested in following the investigative process.

Why do we devote hours and hours of thought and research to deduct a reasonable explaination for the chronic vaginal injuries to JBR, when her own father could make one simple phone call to her former pediatrician and ask for a logical medical explaination for those injuries noted and despense of one more large question in the mind of his families accusers???

I would hope if I were in the role of the parent of a murdered child, that I would go to the ends of the Earth to prove myself innocent so that the true criminal could be taken off the streets and punished for the murder of my child! He$$, 99.9 of us here at WS go to the ends of the Earth in search of truth and we are not even related to anyone remotely involved in this case!

Bottom Line is everyone closely involved has FAILED JonBenet Ramsey! That is the largest tragedy in the aftermath of her murder!
 
When you say it like that, it kills the fight in me a little!
 
SuperDave said:
"PLEASE Tell me that YOU would use reverse psychology on yourself and serve your conscious and your fellow man by not using your superior intellect and judgement and that you would indeed honor your own call to jury duty...???..."

I sure hope so!
Okay - I am a total geek and will admit that I LOVE jury duty.
 
SuperDave said:
"PLEASE Tell me that YOU would use reverse psychology on yourself and serve your conscious and your fellow man by not using your superior intellect and judgement and that you would indeed honor your own call to jury duty...???..."

I sure hope so!
:woohoo:Thank you sincerely, Super Dave! Now, I won't be forced to leave WS's only to retreat to the anals of private Sleuthing! My judgment of character remains firmly established! ;)
 
Hard as it is to ignore the little man (my gut), I try to weigh the facts first and foremost.
 
of the R's at acandyrose last night. (I forgot about this one...)

9. When asked about the 'normal' status of JBR's door during the nighttime after being 'tucked in' for the night, PR said 'that it was usually pulled to an almost closed position... It remained cracked.'
When asked what position she discovered JBR's door in when she ran to the top of the stairs after discovering the ransom note to see if JBR was in her room or not, PR replied that ' the door was in a cracked or partially open position as usual...'

If this is indeed fact, can you think of a more considerate kidnapper/murderer? With a child in your arms, you manuver the door behind you to the same position that it was found in prior to your having entered it... Talk about thorough! This guy created the Perfect Crime in the Perfect City... Oh... I forgot...someone already said that...didn't they???

I think I will start my own book titled "BLUNDERS IN BOULDER"!
 
angelwngs said:
OK... Intruder theory #2...
He enters the house the same as above...Writes the note for a delay tactic. Make garrote. (Assume that the hair in the knots actually got inside the knots as they were twisted... Assume it was not made on the child.) Mouth is duct taped. Garrote is used for control. Arms tied together. Move child to basement in order to Perform sexual acts... without as much chance of being caught. Hits child in head while she is hanging w/ arms above her. Cuts child down. Positions body for others to find. Places note on stairs to delay search for intruder. Leaves same door he entered.
This theory is in no way consistent with the forensic evidence. Duct tape was placed on the dead child's mouth, therefore there was no need to 'control' her with the garrote anymore.
And how would JB's hair have gotten entangled in the garrote if the garrote was not consructed on JB's already inert body?
JB's arms were not 'tied together' in any way. In fact, there was so much space between the wrist ligtures that even a child would have been able to free her hands. And the wrist loops themselves were tied so loosely hat one loop had already come off before the coroner did the autopsy. Al this just sreams staging, don't you think so?
Nothing indicates that JonBenet was in any way 'hanging' and then cut off.
And if the intruder had 'positioned' the body for others to find, he would not have wrapped it in a blanket and hidden it in a far-away corner of the house.
And why would an intruder have written a note to "delay search for an intruder"? A note with which he would only have left behind forensic evidence (handwriting, fingerprints, etc.) This doesn't make sense.
How have your theories been altered in the last two weeks?
My theory has in no way been altered. I have never believed for a minute that an intruder committed this crime. Everything points to the Ramseys.
 
Who wrote it? What were the hypothetical theories offered in it?

Holy Cow..... I have been at acandyrose rereading JR's (last interview, I think it is...) and I realized that in 10 years, I never once considered the profile of an intruder who actually HATED John Ramsey, a killer who was harboring enough hostility and anger that he could literally mean what he said in the ransom note as far as the anger, which was vented within the words of the ransom note, and was still able to twist those angry words to cast suspicion onto the R's.

Please INDULGE me with this possible theory within this thread titled "EVERY POSSIBILITY"....

I hope some of you take the time to at least read it and offer target practice shooting holes into it afterward!

(I hate feeling as an idiot... There already probably 400,000 threads already here in the archives discussing this exact possibility and 10 years later, a tiny, little 'light bulb' just exploded in my brain and here I go blabbering...again. Crap this is probably what the above mentioned book was suggesting... Anyway, I need to type these thoughts on paper...)

If others imagine for a second that this could possibly be fact, truth...then it is much easier to also imagine that this entire scenerio was a 'set up' to cause the worst pain imaginable for JR, by murdering his daughter and to also twist and mangle the evidence of the crime in such a way, as to point every finger of suspicion and guilt toward JR and PR as the murderers of their own daughter. Please just play along with me...on this one...


The intruder meticulously planned this murder to a tee... He KNEW and Despised John Ramsey......

Talk about a Perfect Crime..........in theory..........

The intruder/murderer was killing JBR to hurt JR and his family in the WORST way, by devising the crime to look as if JR, himself and his family were the killers....................He made a key to enter/exit and relock the house once the crime was complete... He knew that no security alarm had been set in years in the house. He knew of the party at the Whites. What more perfectly PAINFUL time to inflict torture and agony toward someone you despise than on Christmas Day!?

The note paper came from within the house, so did the pen used to write the note. He meant for it and all other evidence to come from 'within'.

The ransom note looks as if PR wrote it because the killer studied PR's handwriting...and pain-stakingly wrote both the 1st draft and the completed note which was found, to make it look as if PR was trying to disguise her own writing. He left the 1st draft purposely to add spice to the idea that PR was formulating the note. He had even studied her journalistic writing style and wording carefully. (After all, he had copies of her long Christmas letters to use as study guides.) The note's placement on the stairs spread apart was ingenious to trap the Ramsey's. No intruder/kidnapper/sexual pervert would take the time when leaving to place a note there and he couldn't have done it as he came down the stairs with the body in arms.

No raging, anger driven pedo killer also writes a kidnapping ransom note and sexually abuses the victim, protectively wrapping the victim and refrains from sadistically mutilating vitim and ALSO leaves the body in the house! No ransom note has ever been discovered in a murder case in all history that is this lengthy and this insane and points LE (in retrospect) more toward the parents, which was the intruder/murder's exact intent.

There is no evidence of forced entry because the killer wanted it to look as if JR and PR did this.

JBR was drugged on the 25th prior to arriving home that evening. (Pulling this off was tricky...???...)

The bowl of pineapple was STAGED to create a conflict in PR and JR's story of the events of the evening of the 25th. He knew PR and JR would know NOTHING about any fresh pineapple in the house...Before killing JBR he forced her to eat it so that when both PR and JR said she was asleep in the car and carried to her bed 'zonked out' the pineapple in her autopsy report would make them look as if they were both liars. They would trap themselves with their own honesty.

The blow to the head, (caused by a flashlight from within the home), was intended to look as if PR walked in and caught her husband in the act.

The garrote (made with PR's paintbrush tied on an already dead JBR was intended to have her hair twisted inside the knots!!! It was staged by the intruder to POINT to JR and PR!) and the sexual trauma was intended to point to sexual abuse by a close relative. The 'chronic sexual trauma evidence' was his doing as well.


The tape was staged...after her death to make it 'look' as if JR and PR had silenced her with it. He KNEW that a dead child can't attempt to scream moving her lips thus also pointing to a "STAGED CRIME SCENE"!

The furniture was placed in front of the door in the basement to block entrance/exit through the only 'broken window' accessable entry/exit obvious in the house. This would assure LE that an 'intruder' could not have exited this house. (Could he have also trained a spider to spin a web exactly where he wanted it spun? 'Oh the tangled webs we weave...' Now that was just plain corny. )

Leaving JBR's body in the house is the final and classic sign of the intruder saying, "Take this one John! Here is the final nail in your coffin". It sealed the deal to point to the R's guilt.

He knew LE and the legal system. He KNEW BOLDER WOULD BLUNDER the investigation so as not to trap himself as the real killer. He probably helped them acheive many blunders. He knew the media and most likely fed information to them. He glories in JMK and 10 years later helping to bring suspicon back on his nemisis, John Ramsey. (How the heck do you spell 'nemisis' nimesis? Crap! I have no idea and my spellings are so far off from correct that I can't even find it in the dictionary!)

What have I left out or savagely screwed up if this were a possible theory?

...A list of possible suspects as intruder/killer to fit this theory??? Humm... several immediately come to mind...but that gets sticky... Even if it is 'hypothetical, opinion, theory', I can't (and won't)type names of real people related to this case who could have done this... and fit this crime scene. (Call me :chicken: poo.)

But how about possible profile qualities of possible suspects?

Possibly a member of law enforcement, media or the journalism field or someone who has very strong influence in these areas...and also someone close enough to John Ramsey to HATE him passionately OR at least to sickly PRETEND that he did hate John for his motives of success, power and fortune to be gained in the future. Can HATE be so powerful that it motivates the PERFECT crime? (Or are success, power and forturne considered more motivational in exicuting the perfect crime?) The killer either Genuinely HATED JR, wanted others to think he did, was a crazed psycho idiot who got very, very lucky or was indeed a family member.
(Hypothetically speaking of course. Totally :chicken: ,yet again!)

Quote JR should memorize and use daily IF an intruder/murder killed JBR and if this theory could possibly lead to finding his daughter's killer...

"Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer."


(The pot of Fully-Leaded Coffee has finally worn off now... I promise I'm done for now.)
 
Hi Angel wings. i think you are gonna wear your computer out!Will have a good read when i have time and get back to you.:p
 
angelwngs said:
Who wrote it? What were the hypothetical theories offered in it?

Holy Cow..... I have been at acandyrose rereading JR's (last interview, I think it is...) and I realized that in 10 years, I never once considered the profile of an intruder who actually HATED John Ramsey, a killer who was harboring enough hostility and anger that he could literally mean what he said in the ransom note as far as the anger, which was vented within the words of the ransom note, and was still able to twist those angry words to cast suspicion onto the R's.

Please INDULGE me with this possible theory within this thread titled "EVERY POSSIBILITY"....

I hope some of you take the time to at least read it and offer target practice shooting holes into it afterward!
Angelwings, I have read it - it is not a very probable theory imo, but it is an interesting read and at least you tried to fit in many bits and pieces of the evidence found at the crime scene, something which one rarely gets from an IDI.
But the main 'hole' I'll have to shoot into your theory:

Suppose it were like that and an immensely sophisticated intruder committed the crime the way you said, then why on earth did the Ramseys behave so suspiciously right from the start? There would have been no need for them to behave like that.
For example, they were totally immune to the threats in the ransom note, whose author warned them that they were under constant scrutiny and JB would be 'beheaded' if they talked to anyone about their situation. But instead, they called lots of people over to their house! And the police could walk openly into their house too.
The RN author had written that he would call between 8 and 10 o'clock. When 10 o'clock had passed without a phone call from the kidnappers, the Ramseys didn't show any reaction. Innocent parents would probably have become frantic when it turned out that the kidnappers didn't call as announced.
The parents never comforted each other, never even stood together. They were in two separate rooms. This struck the detectives as peculiar.
Patsy (who before had greeted the police in perfect hairdo and make-up, (still) wearing the clothes she had worn to the Whites' party) showed hysterical behavior, but a police officer caught her eyeballing him through splayed fingers ("I hope my performance is convincing").

At ten o'clock, John Ramsey vanished for a short time, and it was noted that when he was back he was in deep thought and nervously tapped his foot. It has been theorized that the poor innocent man had found the body, but said nothing because he knew it must have been Patsy. But why on earth should John have been so sophisticated to conclude at once it must have been his wife who murdered their child? And he responded to that shocking discovery by only being preoccupied in thought and tapping his foot? Tapping one's foot is not a sign of shock - it is often a sign of impatience. And I'm convinced that, when tapping his foot, the following thoughts were in John Ramsey's head:

"The police have been in the house for four hours now and haven't found JB in the wine cellar yet. It never occured to me that these idiots might not discover the body. What are we going to do now?"

After the official later 'discovery' of JB's dead body by John Ramsey, the couple's suspicious behavior continues. Patsy throwing herself on the body with that theatrical Lazarus performance, which was followed by the Ramseys quickly leaving the crime scene, letting the body of their dead child lying there like a broken doll. ("Lets get out of here before the police starts asking questions").
Their total non-cooperation with the police stands out in bold relief. They refused to be interviewed separately (since when can people dictate to the police how they should interview them?), and when the police did not go along with that, the Ramseys refused to talk to them at all. WHY?
But instead they talked to the media, telling the TV audience five days after the death of their child that they were not angry at the killer and wanted to get on with their life.

The Ramseys were involved in the killing of their daughter. The more I'm reading about this case, the more convinced I am. The evidence pointing to them is simply overwhelming.

But Angelwings, I think you are right on target in saying that the ransom note author had issues with John Ramsey on a personal level. But imo the person who had these issues was the one living closest together with him: his own wife.
 
Rashomon,

Your every point makes your position well justified. That is why I am soooooooooo confused by this case......... One minute I can see it as RDI and the next an IDI....

Thank you for taking the time to reply with such 'common sense' and in such a well thought out and explained way...
 
My husband is a man of few words. (I make up 10 fold for his silence!) When he speaks his words are high in substance. (Like the old commercial: "When E.F. Hutton Speaks, people listen.") From Dec.1996 consistantly thru today, every time he saw me reading, watching or listening to items about the JonBenet Ramsey case, he would shake his head in silent sadness at my inability to come to a solid conclusion as to whom I thought 'did it' or he would simply say, "It's so obvious. The parents are guilty as ____ and the son knows more than he is telling, too."

In 25 years of marriage, time and time again, I have realized that my life would have been so much simpler if I recognized his wisdom at the beginning of a delima. Instead, I have constantly followed my own crazed analytical path of searching for every detail to solve some puzzle.

Today, we "discussed" this case one last time... Today, I admitted my foolishness...on and off for the past 10 years. I have gone around the World to end up at the same place he has been all along. (At least, he is not one to gloat over his victories.)
 
The biggest puzzle for me is the RN. JB was already dead, so there was no need for that note.

I wonder if the original plan was to get her body out of the house - perhaps in the suitcase. It could have been put in a dumpster, or left somewhere for someone to find. This would be a logical reason for that RN.
Her body couldn't be removed from the house, so it was hidden away in the farthest place possible. I doubt she was even killed in the wine cellar.

The fact that there was light snow on the ground may have been why the body was not moved from the house, as tire tracks from the garage would have been noticed. Another possibility is that a neighbor may have seen a vehicle leave early in the AM.
 
Darlene733510 said:
The biggest puzzle for me is the RN. JB was already dead, so there was no need for that note.

I wonder if the original plan was to get her body out of the house - perhaps in the suitcase. It could have been put in a dumpster, or left somewhere for someone to find. This would be a logical reason for that RN.
Her body couldn't be removed from the house, so it was hidden away in the farthest place possible. I doubt she was even killed in the wine cellar.

The fact that there was light snow on the ground may have been why the body was not moved from the house, as tire tracks from the garage would have been noticed. Another possibility is that a neighbor may have seen a vehicle leave early in the AM.
Good point, I think this is possible also.The note was a red herring to throw LE off the parents.It worked because it did in a way stop police from suspecting the Ramsay's.If only for a short time.The thing that It did big time was confuse the issue therfore making it hard to come to a definate conclusion. The Note may seem silly but it cast a cloud of doubt (and suspicion) over the case. The reasoning behind it was very atute. i think patsy wrote it but John was the engineer.
 
kazzbar said:
Good point, I think this is possible also.The note was a red herring to throw LE off the parents.It worked because it did in a way stop police from suspecting the Ramsay's. If only for a short time.The thing that It did big time was confuse the issue therfore making it hard to come to a definate conclusion. The Note may seem silly but it cast a cloud of doubt (and suspicion) over the case. The reasoning behind it was very atute. i think patsy wrote it but John was the engineer.
~~~~~
I had not considered one person engineering the note and the other writing it.... Makes perfect sense. :doh: The note definitely had masculine overtones. (and you are soooo correct... it did confuse things!)

If you are an RDI, in 'their' heat of confusion late that night, considering the question of what to do with the body, the old blanket of JAR's and the suitcase being moved make total sense if the idea of putting JBR inside it for an airplane trip to be disposed of in a lake came up by a hysterical female, but then the idea was quickly abandoned when complications of other children (and a pilot) being present enter into the equasion. Too many human elements make for a really bad accidental (or secret) crime scene. Now, if JR could have cancelled the pilot and piloted the trip himself, if BR already knew what was happening or could have suddenly had to go to stay with friends or other family and if MR and JAR were arriving at the lake well after JR and PR, then the plane trip and a body never found at the bottom of a lake could have been a half decent cover-up for an "accidental" death on vacation.

The suitcase could also have been to moved initially to transport the body from the house in order to have disposed of the body by car in the "mountains to the West of the house". That seemed to be the only 'direction' PR knew from the interview w/ LE. (When LE asked her about the North door (or something like that) of the house, she said, "I only know that the mountains are to the West." ???--- Humm... think of a box imagine w/the mts on the west side... your house is the box... across from west must be...oh ding ding ding... east...????.... hummm... ok....then...that would make the bottom...oh i don't know...ding ding ding...south maybe,,, and if that was south then the top of the box must be...ding ding ding... ok now you know where the mtns are in relation to your house... so where are the doors in your house on this box here...North... magna *advertiser censored* what? wow that was really difficult... now i think i need to take another break...) But the tracks in the snow and possible witnesses seeing the car leave and return throw this 'moving the body out of the house challenge' all out of whack. So they could have decided that LE were not really total idiots and them finding the body after 'a kidnapping gone wrong' would be the best solution. Turns out if this is what happened, they were wrong about the 'idiot' part...

The one SINGLE FACT that everyone can agree on, reguardless of who they think did what, when, where and why is that, sadly, the 'idiot Barney Fife part' played perfectly into screwing up the crime scene so well that, in all likelyhood, no one will ever be convicted of this crime. :(


(All posts are JMHO)
 
Darlene733510 said:
The biggest puzzle for me is the RN. JB was already dead, so there was no need for that note.

I wonder if the original plan was to get her body out of the house - perhaps in the suitcase. It could have been put in a dumpster, or left somewhere for someone to find. This would be a logical reason for that RN.
Her body couldn't be removed from the house, so it was hidden away in the farthest place possible. I doubt she was even killed in the wine cellar.

The fact that there was light snow on the ground may have been why the body was not moved from the house, as tire tracks from the garage would have been noticed. Another possibility is that a neighbor may have seen a vehicle leave early in the AM.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
The ransom note is no puzzle if you consider the possibility that the R's did it and they needed to make it look like a kidnapping gone bad.
 
Had the Ramsays been interviewed by police seperately asap we would not even be debating this case.Patsy would have cracked immediately. By the time Le had interviewed them they were resolved to keep up the act. Patsy had convinced herself that is was all an awful accident and God would forgive her.John stood by her because he was an accomplice. I think Patsy was a 'basket' case with all the guilt.
 
kazzbar said:
Had the Ramsays been interviewed by police seperately asap we would not even be debating this case.Patsy would have cracked immediately. By the time Le had interviewed them they were resolved to keep up the act. Patsy had convinced herself that is was all an awful accident and God would forgive her.John stood by her because he was an accomplice. I think Patsy was a 'basket' case with all the guilt.
i agree. I think it was some sort of accident, and because it was an accident, PR and maybe JR (I'm undecided on his involvement, except maybe after the fact) could rationalize any behavior (stonewalling police, tossing friends under the bus) by reminding herself/themselves that it was an accident, not an intentional death, and nothing is to be gained by being punished for it. I think the only time PR would have crumbled would have been in the immediate aftermath of the death.

Good thing she had legal counsel just minutes after JBR was found!
(and Grrrr! No one can tell me that there was any indication from LE on Dec. 26th that JR or PR were suspects and needed to secure counsel THAT fast....no way. They went straight from finding the body to CYA, imo)
 
kazzbar said:
Had the Ramsays been interviewed by police seperately asap we would not even be debating this case.Patsy would have cracked immediately. By the time Le had interviewed them they were resolved to keep up the act. Patsy had convinced herself that is was all an awful accident and God would forgive her.John stood by her because he was an accomplice. I think Patsy was a 'basket' case with all the guilt.
Hi Kazz!

I think Patsy was indeed a basket case, before, (during?) and after the murder.

Last night, I remembered the morning a few months ago, when my oldest son, 23, was 'missing'. He had gone to the small town next to us and was partying with his friends. At 7:30 the morning after, his friends here in our hometown began calling our business looking for him. I immediately realized something was up. It was way out of character for his friends to be calling so early on a Satruday morning. By 8:20 he was still not at work at our business. I started calling all of his friends in the nearby town he had visited and no one answered their cell phones or their home phones in the town he had visited. I immediately called the guy he had ridden with the night before. He was CRYING when he answered the phone. This was looking like it could be the moments before a mother's worst nightmare... I immediately got in my car, went and picked up the friend and we drove to this town to retrace my son's probable steps the night before and to FIND MY SON!!! I had visions of the worst possible scenerio imanagible crawling through my head... I planned to start with friends, then hospitals, then ditches... and so on... It turned out that my son had gotten crapped faced at a bar downtown and made his friend let him out of the car at 3 AM. In his drunken stupor he was planning to WALK to the apartment of a friend some 12 miles away and through a seedy part of town. Taxi drivers would not stop for my son even when he jumped into the street trying to flag them down.. (Imagine that...???...This was not one of my son's proudest moments. Nor mine as his mother.) He lost his cell phone....but finally made it to his friend's apartment and crashed. All his friends there had crashed.

By the time I finally found him, I didn't know whether to scream or rejoice. I chose to rejoice. Then there was a lot of quiet. Then there was a lot of listening to him give an instant replay of his stupid choices the night before.

Ultimately, what I did KNOW, was that my being his mother not only gave me the RIGHT to GO TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH to find my son and to make sure he was ok, but being his mother placed that DUTY firmly on my shoulders. I would deal with the lectures later.........when I was sure he was totally coherrant. I didn't go batty, hysterical until after it was all over...alone in my shower at home. Then then I fell apart.

I would expect any mother to do everything within her power to look for her missing child whether they were 23 or 6 and to insure that child's safe return. Even in a crisis, a Mother's Love should have taken over and helped a mother do what had to be done. (but then I had gotten a clean bill of health from my OBGYN from my cancer almost 20 years earlier...and I wasn't on ativan or any other antidepressants either. :confused: )
 

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