Evidence Against Patsy That Most People Have Never Read Before

[julianne]

It's a messy case for sure...but as I recall, Patsy claimed she never wore the sweater in question in the basement...and I don't think the Ramsey team has ever had a real explanation for the fibers being where they all were (aside from a weak "innocent tranferrence" bit).

Patsy falling over Jonbenet doesn't explain the fibers in the basement...especially on the sticky side of the tape that was on Jonbenet's mouth.

Totally messy case!

This could be a stretch, and it may have been already discussed, but John took the tape off her mouth, right? Not disputed. Prior to finding JonBenets body, if John & Patsy were, in their grief, hugging and holding each other throughout that time, wouldn't it be possible for John to have her sweater fibers ALL over him, including his hand? Especially if he had been sitting next to her, rubbing his hand over her back, back and forth, as in a comforting way? So, if he goes to pull the tape off her mouth, wouldn't there be fiber transference there? Especially since I am sure he didn't RIP the tape off, he probably would've tried to be as gentle as possible, which means he grabs an end of the tape, pulls slightly, grabs it again closer to where it is sticking to her skin, pulls slightly, grabs it again closer...well, just picture trying to gently pull tape off skin. That way fiber transference could happen on many places on the tape, as opposed to just the corner.

I'll be the first to admit that this may be a stretch, but isn't it also plausible? What do you guys think???

 

[angelwngs]

This doesn't clear anything up, IMO. The above link is a story where Linda Arndt admits to, quote "withholding notes taken during the first 2 weeks of the murder investigation, never filed a report on the contents of the notes, which a police attorney repeatedly described as "critical" to prosecuting the killer."

It goes on to say she never transcribed the notes, kept them in a locked desk drawer of her office, then took them home in 1999 after she quit. Then she gave them to a friend.

quote: "And you were content to let the Ramsey investigation proceed without these critical reports?" police attorney Theodore Halaby asked. Arndt answered yes.

She also said there could be more notes that were never transcribed!!!
quote: Police did not learn of Arndt's notes until she gave a March 8, 2000.

Then she actually has the gall to say that her reputation was damaged because her superiors didn't refute reports from press that she bungled the investigation

Arndt reitereated her claims that she thought her work at the scene was PHENOMENAL.

How can ANYTHING that Linda Arndt says clear up anything?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, Dear Lord In Heaven! Can we not trust ANY 'evidence' in this case as being accurate?!!!? I after reading this, I assume all 'evidence' is potentially tainted.

Did Arndt ever disclose the content of the notes? Anyone....???


(All said and done, it is beginning to look as if shampooing my livingroom carpet which I have been putting off to play sleuth, would now be much more productive than being here. Bummer.....)

 

[julianne]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh, Dear Lord In Heaven! Can we not trust ANY 'evidence' in this case as being accurate?!!!? I after reading this, I assume all 'evidence' is potentially tainted.

Did Arndt ever disclose the content of the notes? Anyone....???


(All said and done, it is beginning to look as if shampooing my livingroom carpet which I have been putting off to play sleuth, would now be much more productive than being here. Bummer.....)

I hear ya, angelwngs. But don't go....I enjoy your posts as I am sure others do too.

I believe she says she disclosed the contents of the notes, but remember, it wasn't until 2001--over 5 WHOLE YEARS AFTER the crime. She kept them in her desk, brought them to her house, and ALSO gave them to a friend. All that before anyone in LE even knew the reports existed!!! So, IMO, nothing at all that is contained in those reports can be considered evidence---because of all the opportunity for her, someone at her home, or her friend to change the contents of those reports. Anything could've happened in those 5 years, ya know?

 

[julianne]

Also, in my above post about the fiber transference, most people tend to perspire when stressed, nervous or whatever. If John had sweaty hands, which is a high possibility, wouldn't even more fibers than usual stick to his hand if he was hugging and rubbing Patsy's back for comfort??

Don't laugh.....I know it all sounds like a stretch, but a very possible one to me.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

Totally messy case!

This could be a stretch, and it may have been already discussed, but John took the tape off her mouth, right? Not disputed. Prior to finding JonBenets body, if John & Patsy were, in their grief, hugging and holding each other throughout that time, wouldn't it be possible for John to have her sweater fibers ALL over him, including his hand? Especially if he had been sitting next to her, rubbing his hand over her back, back and forth, as in a comforting way? So, if he goes to pull the tape off her mouth, wouldn't there be fiber transference there? Especially since I am sure he didn't RIP the tape off, he probably would've tried to be as gentle as possible, which means he grabs an end of the tape, pulls slightly, grabs it again closer to where it is sticking to her skin, pulls slightly, grabs it again closer...well, just picture trying to gently pull tape off skin. That way fiber transference could happen on many places on the tape, as opposed to just the corner.

I'll be the first to admit that this may be a stretch, but isn't it also plausible? What do you guys think???

If John was the carrier of Patsy's fibers...then he would have needed to touch her paint tote, mess with the garrotte (which we know he didn't)...and the blanket the body was wrapped in (I suppose he touched it)...plus the tape (which he did touch).

As for John's own fiber that wound up inside Jonbenet's wrong sized panties...not sure where the innocent transferrence would have come from.

Another point to consider too is Fleet White and how he didn't find the body, but then John automatically found the body (Fleet suspected John had moved the body within the room).
Is interesting...Fleet White came to believe John had killed Jonbenet...and later on the Ramseys fingered the Whites as suspects.

 

[JBean]

30 minutes after the discovery though, he was ready to leave town. People might deal with things in different ways...but apparently he had few problems with leaving his daughter behind in Boulder.
If he hadn't been told different by the police...he would have gone to Atlanta that very day.

While on one hand one can try to dismiss every odd thing about John's behavior as shock induced...the other hand can say that John knew there was no reason to mess with the garrotte...and that most likely he did not even mess with the cord on her wrist. And as well...that he knew he was carrying a dead person...he didn't carry her like a person...he carried her like an item.

What did the Ramseys say regarding their desire to leave town? I mean their explanation.

 

[julianne]

If John was the carrier of Patsy's fibers...then he would have needed to touch her paint tote, mess with the garrotte (which we know he didn't)...and the blanket the body was wrapped in (I suppose he touched it)...plus the tape (which he did touch).

As for John's own fiber that wound up inside Jonbenet's wrong sized panties...not sure where the innocent transferrence would have come from.

Another point to consider too is Fleet White and how he didn't find the body, but then John automatically found the body (Fleet suspected John had moved the body within the room).
Is interesting...Fleet White came to believe John had killed Jonbenet...and later on the Ramseys fingered the Whites as suspects.

I thought the reason Fleet didn't see her was because he didn't turn the light on, and John did?? I know I read that, but I don't remember where. It may have been an official document, but it also could've been another post.

Also, did John say he never touched the garrotte? Or did he just not mention it all??

 

[julianne]

What did the Ramseys say regarding their desire to leave town? I mean their explanation.

I thought that phone call was actually supposed to have been flight arrangements for Melinda and John Andrew to come home to Boulder. Not positive, though.

 

[angelwngs]

I hear ya, angelwngs. But don't go....I enjoy your posts as I am sure others do too.

I believe she says she disclosed the contents of the notes, but remember, it wasn't until 2001--over 5 WHOLE YEARS AFTER the crime. She kept them in her desk, brought them to her house, and ALSO gave them to a friend. All that before anyone in LE even knew the reports existed!!! So, IMO, nothing at all that is contained in those reports can be considered evidence---because of all the opportunity for her, someone at her home, or her friend to change the contents of those reports. Anything could've happened in those 5 years, ya know?

Exactly! They are worthless as evidence goes, b-u-t...even so, I SURE would LOVE to read her notes. (and thank you for your nice comments about me staying here and my posts. Often, I feel rather invisible here.)

I asked a question earlier in another post on this thread, but I guess it was during one of those invisible moments... :blushing:

~Do you know if Fleet White corroborated John Ramsey's statement that he took the duct tape off and did CPR/mouth to mouth on JonBenet before bringing her body upstairs?

~Were any interviews conducted by LE with Fleet White concerning the step by step events of Dec 26th ever published? I would LOVE to read those too!

Thanks, in advance, for any links you can provide.~

 

[JBean]

If John was the carrier of Patsy's fibers...then he would have needed to touch her paint tote, mess with the garrotte (which we know he didn't)...and the blanket the body was wrapped in (I suppose he touched it)...plus the tape (which he did touch).

As for John's own fiber that wound up inside Jonbenet's wrong sized panties...not sure where the innocent transferrence would have come from.

Another point to consider too is Fleet White and how he didn't find the body, but then John automatically found the body (Fleet suspected John had moved the body within the room).
Is interesting...Fleet White came to believe John had killed Jonbenet...and later on the Ramseys fingered the Whites as suspects.

what do you mean "automatically" found the body?

 

[julianne]

Exactly! They are worthless as evidence goes, b-u-t...even so, I SURE would LOVE to read her notes. (and thank you for your nice comments about me staying here and my posts. Often, I feel rather invisible here.)

I asked a question earlier in another post on this thread, but I guess it was during one of those invisible moments... :blushing:

~Do you know if Fleet White corroborated John Ramsey's statement that he took the duct tape off and did CPR/mouth to mouth on JonBenet before bringing her body upstairs?

~Were any interviews conducted by LE with Fleet White concerning the step by step events of Dec 26th ever published? I would LOVE to read those too!

Thanks, in advance, for any links you can provide.~

Oh, I would absolutely LOVE to see those notes, also.

I don't know the answers to your questions...but someone else reading and posting probably does.....ANY TAKERS?? My initial answer to the question about published Fleet White interviews is NO----but I would love to be proven wrong because I have never seen them, and if they do exist, I would love to read them.

I think we all feel invisible at times....well, at least I know I do. But don't take it personal...there are so many members here, and often so many posts pop up it's easy for other posts to get lost in the shuffle.

 

[angelwngs]

I thought the reason Fleet didn't see her was because he didn't turn the light on, and John did?? I know I read that, but I don't remember where. It may have been an official document, but it also could've been another post.

Also, did John say he never touched the garrotte? Or did he just not mention it all??

Det Linda A. said... (for what it's worth now that we know her statements of record are tainted) that Fleet White pulled her aside to speak privately to tell her that he looked in the cellar before John entered and found the body.

He pulled her aside to speak to her privately, and insinuates that he suspected John Ramsey of putting the body in the cellar after he searched the cellar. I think Fleet White was pretty confident that he 'smelled a rat' at the crime scene on Dec. 26th. He changed immediately and it was evident. (even Patsy and John Ramsey recognized it immediately and did a reverse serve against the Whites.)

 

[joeskidbeck]

But how many people would use this condescending phrase when questioned by a police officer? Would innocent parents desperately wanting to find the killer of their daughter have called the detective 'buddy'? I can imagine Patsy being shocked or outraged when Haney implied the Ramseys' involvement in JB's killings, but it is her too callously sounding "you're going down the wrong path, buddy" which is bothering me.
The same goes for Patsy's "Pal, you don't want to go there" when Haney told her that JB had been the victim of prior sexual abuse.
Calling a police officer 'pal' is very snotty and condescending too, and imo when saying "Pal, you don't want to go there" in the context of this interview, Patsy wanted to threaten Haney.

I have always thought that both of these phrases sounded like threats. I used the phrase "you don't want to go there" with my kids and they knew I meant punishment would sure and swift. Patsy knew then and died knowing that she didn't have to worry about the da's office bringing charges against her. She was making it clear to the detectives that she could'nt be touched.

 

[HeartofTexas]

JBean, I apologize for putting the "never" in my sentence about Patsy never getting off the couch... I don't know why my sentence came out the way it did. What I meant was that the other people with PR left the room but PR continued sitting on the couch for a few more minutes. And the same way you feel that what John did was appropriate when he found JonBenet's body is pretty much what I was expecting from PR. IOW, if my child has been missing for however many hours it was, and someone finds her, I am going to race in there and knock anyone over in my path to get to her... dead or alive. No matter what version is true, or which version you believe, no friends would have held me back... nothing would have stopped me getting to my child at that very moment.

I think there are little clues people give off that give a subtle hint re their guilt or innocence. I'm certainly not saying these subtle clues would hold up in a Court of law, or that they should... but I think there are things that can be inferred from our behavior at times. For instance, I remember when the LAPD called OJ in Chicago at the hotel to tell them that Nicole had been murdered, OJ NEVER asked if his two kids were okay. He knew they were living with their mom, he knew they were home, and yet he never asked LAPD if his kids had been harmed. Why didn't he ask? Obviously, it's my feeling that he knew. And I'm inferring the same thing with PR. Why didn't she rush to JonBenet's body... because she knew JonBenet was dead and she was composing herself. She was acting... and the Lazarus speech was part of her "over the top" production. Obviously, JMHO.

 

[angelwngs]

Julianne, Check this site out............

Scroll down to Linda Arndt's accounts of Fleet White coming upstairs from the cellar and John Ramsey bringing JonBenet upstairs. Note the * and side note that Arndt never noted CPR/mouth to mouth done in her presence. It also tells the recount of Arndt hearing a gutteral sound coming from the TV room/back of the house, most probably when PR realized JBR had been found and the sequence of events which happened immediately afterward:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer/primer4_time.html

 

[scandi]

I read that Patsy was wearing a jacket, not a coat or a sweater, that had the same red fibres as part of its construction.

It was passed off as they could have been floating through the air and just happened to land on JonBenet and all around in the area, like the painting tray!

But to be tangled in the Garrote!


I'm beginning to think after all I have read here that Patsy, ridden with cancer at that time and who hadn't been sexual with her husband for ages, might have reverted to an alter self that was a lesbian. I think she wiped down JonBenet 3, 4 times a day after a pee pee accident, and it was with great relish that she made JB hurt and cry out and then try to be the best little girlie she could ever be for her Momme.

Sick as it is, and I am sorry to bring out these thoughts of mine, but Patsy was a very ill person, overinflated in ego, living her life through JB a to be the best she could be , , ,I could go on and on and make a case with what I feel at this point.

I have come to the realization that Steve, as smart as he is, would have nailed an intruder if that person was nailable, LOL although I still think it was a ruse that Helgoth was out of town, or not true. But I am now seriously thinking Patsy was not all that she was made to be.

Scandi

 

[JBean]

JBean, I apologize for putting the "never" in my sentence about Patsy never getting off the couch... I don't know why my sentence came out the way it did. What I meant was that the other people with PR left the room but PR continued sitting on the couch for a few more minutes. And the same way you feel that what John did was appropriate when he found JonBenet's body is pretty much what I was expecting from PR. IOW, if my child has been missing for however many hours it was, and someone finds her, I am going to race in there and knock anyone over in my path to get to her... dead or alive. No matter what version is true, or which version you believe, no friends would have held me back... nothing would have stopped me getting to my child at that very moment.

I think there are little clues people give off that give a subtle hint re their guilt or innocence. I'm certainly not saying these subtle clues would hold up in a Court of law, or that they should... but I think there are things that can be inferred from our behavior at times. For instance, I remember when the LAPD called OJ in Chicago at the hotel to tell them that Nicole had been murdered, OJ NEVER asked if his two kids were okay. He knew they were living with their mom, he knew they were home, and yet he never asked LAPD if his kids had been harmed. Why didn't he ask? Obviously, it's my feeling that he knew. And I'm inferring the same thing with PR. Why didn't she rush to JonBenet's body... because she knew JonBenet was dead and she was composing herself. She was acting... and the Lazarus speech was part of her "over the top" production. Obviously, JMHO.

HI HoT..thanks for clearing that up. I see what you mean, but I just see it a bit differently.
It sound as though the time she waited to leave the sunroom was not very long. Maybe she was just mentally preparing herself for what may be in the other room. I don't find her behavior in this instance to be odd at all.
IN regards to JR, I was only pointing out that many RDI's are quick to interpret his act of bringing JBR upstairs as a way to contaminate the body and evidence. IMO, his behavior was also perfectly reasonable. Maybe he thought he could save his daughter.

 

[sandraladeda]

This doesn't clear anything up, IMO. The above link is a story where Linda Arndt admits to, quote "withholding notes taken during the first 2 weeks of the murder investigation, never filed a report on the contents of the notes, which a police attorney repeatedly described as "critical" to prosecuting the killer."

It goes on to say she never transcribed the notes, kept them in a locked desk drawer of her office, then took them home in 1999 after she quit. Then she gave them to a friend.

quote: "And you were content to let the Ramsey investigation proceed without these critical reports?" police attorney Theodore Halaby asked. Arndt answered yes.

She also said there could be more notes that were never transcribed!!!
quote: Police did not learn of Arndt's notes until she gave a March 8, 2000.

Then she actually has the gall to say that her reputation was damaged because her superiors didn't refute reports from press that she bungled the investigation

Arndt reitereated her claims that she thought her work at the scene was PHENOMENAL.

How can ANYTHING that Linda Arndt says clear up anything?

EDITED TO ADD: The above is the very reason why I don't think we can't take what Linda Arndt is saying as absolutely accurate. While it MAY be, the fact that she is making this claim 5 whole years AFTER the fact, and in an article that clearly shows she withheld reports deemed "critical" to the investigation, took them home, gave them to a friend & didn't inform ANYONE in LE about these notes until 5 years later.....well, I just don't see how we can really assume that what she says is true.

She states her conduct on the day of the crime scene was, in her own words, PHENOMENAL....yet she moved JonBenets body herself?????? More like phenomenally incompetent!!

Those records should have been subpoenaed from Arndt, and when she did not comply with the order, she should have been tossed in jail, imo. Withholding those notes can't be legal! :doh:

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

what do you mean "automatically" found the body?

The sequence of events of the discovery of the body was as such, according to John's statements:
John was told by Arndt to make a thorough search of the house. John chose the basement and took Fleet White down with him. John showed Fleet the train room and showed him the window and the suitcase. Then John went to the wine cellar and found Jonbenet's body. He said he didn't think Fleet was around him when he went to the wine cellar.

Now then, departing from his testimony for the moment...

Earlier in the day Fleet White had made a cursory search of the house, and had peered into the wine cellar. It was too dark and he couldn't find the light switch, so he closed the door and went on his way.

John Ramsey of course had been in the basement himself earlier too, and alone. He claimed he did not check the wine cellar then since he was looking for a POE for an intruder.

Fleet himself came to suspect John because John had seen the body without even turning on the light (so, Fleet apparently was in the general vicinity to know this). Fleet felt John had moved the body to where it was found at some point...that is, after Fleet's search.

Now...John explained why he went to the wine cellar as opposed to another part of basement as being because the wine cellar was right next to the train room.
Take a look at the blueprints here:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html
In doing this...John ignored all of the doors/rooms/ on his left, made a right, and went through a door and down the hallway to the wine cellar's door. This is what he termed as his methodical search...that is, that he had no particular reason for going to the wine cellar when he did.

One side of the fence could dismiss this of course with an excuse...but the other side...well, it raises an eyebrow. And well, it seems how it happened sure raised the eyebrow of a then close friend of John Ramsey.

 

[JBean]

The sequence of events of the discovery of the body was as such, according to John's statements:
John was told by Arndt to make a thorough search of the house. John chose the basement and took Fleet White down with him. John showed Fleet the train room and showed him the window and the suitcase. Then John went to the wine cellar and found Jonbenet's body. He said he didn't think Fleet was around him when he went to the wine cellar.

Now then, departing from his testimony for the moment...

Earlier in the day Fleet White had made a cursory search of the house, and had peered into the wine cellar. It was too dark and he couldn't find the light switch, so he closed the door and went on his way.

John Ramsey of course had been in the basement himself earlier too, and alone. He claimed he did not check the wine cellar then since he was looking for a POE for an intruder.

Fleet himself came to suspect John because John had seen the body without even turning on the light (so, Fleet apparently was in the general vicinity to know this). Fleet felt John had moved the body to where it was found at some point...that is, after Fleet's search.

Now...John explained why he went to the wine cellar as opposed to another part of basement as being because the wine cellar was right next to the train room.
Take a look at the blueprints here:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html
In doing this...John ignored all of the doors/rooms/ on his left, made a right, and went through a door and down the hallway to the wine cellar's door. This is what he termed as his methodical search...that is, that he had no particular reason for going to the wine cellar when he did.

One side of the fence could dismiss this of course with an excuse...but the other side...well, it raises an eyebrow. And well, it seems how it happened sure raised the eyebrow of a then close friend of John Ramsey.

Yes I am familiar with all this info SS. I just didn't know what you meant by the word "automatically".