Evidence that point away from the Ramsey's

[Cypros]

Cypros, I think that, along with a lot of others you have misunderstood the situation wrt "the chair blocking the door".

If you look at the plans of the basement you will see that the door swings inwards to the trainroom, so the intruder could have piled the chair and boxes up behind the closed door before exiting through the window of the trainroom. If that was the case John would have had to push on the door and the chair and boxes piled behind it to make his way into the room. John did not say this in his interviews, which makes me think there was no chair or boxes blocking the door because the door was never shut. I think door was always open and the chair and boxes were only blocking the doorWAY. If this was the case then the intruder could also have left through the trainroom window.

OK. I understand how you are interpreting his words. It would help to see the video made when he gave that interview and was, apparently reenacting his movements through the basement. However, I still the the blocking of the doorway works against an intruder theory. If the window was a point of entry and exit, then an intruder had to have passed through that doorway at least twice that night. If JR had to move things to get through the door then I expect the intruder would have done so as well. So he moved the things out of the way when entering the house and then moved them back into place as he exited? Still doesn't seem logical.

 

[s_finch]

This COULD have been done but WHY would an intruder feel the need to put the chair and boxes back in front of the doorway? I can't think of a logical reason to do that and so believe that JR was the only person moving boxes that night/morning.

Excellent post, Cypros.

Your reasoning and conclusion make sense.

So if Fleet had already been in the wine room checking it, why did JR have to move boxes to get in there later?? Either Fleet put the boxes and chair back in place, or they weren't there when he went into the wine room OR JR slipped up in his testimony and was remembering moving the boxes and chair during the early morning hours of the 26th---before LE was ever called.

Also, did Fleet ever specifically say whether he did or didn't turn on the light in the wine cellar when he checked it? Without a window it'd be pretty dark room. Course a white blanket would be easier to see in a dark room and there would have been light coming in from behind him.

 

[BBB167893]

IF he broke it that summer.

"The housekeeper, Linda Hoffmann Pugh, is on record as stating she knew nothing about any broken window and has flatly contradicted Patsy's claim that both of them cleaned up the glass."

 

[paperhanger44z]

You're right on about the garotte. Nothing perfect about those knots. And yet both John and Smith kept calling this item a "professsional garotte."
Since I've been a Burke Did It from the very beginning, I view this garotte something a kid, who maybe was a scout, put together. I've always suspected this so called garotte was around the house and Burke had made it. I think he had used it once before on his sister in a game and his parents caught him and forbid him to use it again. I can almost hear Patsy yelling "OH God John Burke's done it again with that thing." Not knowing their son was too young to be charged with murder (even if it was an accident) that was the reason enough for Mom and Dad to take measures to cover up the incident. JMO

If thats the case,why not get rid of it ?Why would they leave it lying around with the chance he would use it again?

 

[sandraladeda]

OK. I understand how you are interpreting his words. It would help to see the video made when he gave that interview and was, apparently reenacting his movements through the basement. However, I still the the blocking of the doorway works against an intruder theory. If the window was a point of entry and exit, then an intruder had to have passed through that doorway at least twice that night. If JR had to move things to get through the door then I expect the intruder would have done so as well. So he moved the things out of the way when entering the house and then moved them back into place as he exited? Still doesn't seem logical.

I agree, it doesn't seem logical to me that the intruder would care about putting the chair and boxes back across the doorway before exiting through the window. Why would he bother? What's in it for him to cover up his avenue of escape?

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by Cypros
OOPs!! I posted all this before seeing that someone posted a link to a floor plan of the house. It is the same floor pan as in PMPT and is a great resource. Personally, I can't imagine tryng to understand this crime without studying a floor plan of the house.

The person who posted the link to the floor plan was me. While it is a good floor plan in that it reflects how the rooms connected, where the doors and windows were located, etc., we don't know if it accurately reflects which way the doors swung. The person who posted the floor plans at that site says themselves they've never been in the house. I didn't post that link to the floor plans to show which way the doors swung open, but to show how the rooms were connected, where the doors and windows were located, etc. Personally, I don't much care which way the doors swung because I believe if there was any chair and other stuff in front of that door at all it was put there by JR himself.

Smit questioned the stuff in front of the door not being logical because of the difficulting/impossibility in putting it there and going out the window. We don't know how big that chair was or where it came from or if it was possible for the "intruder" to climb over it to get back in the train room in order to go out the window. But, we already know nobody went in or out of that window.

We don't even know how that stuff got there or if it was ever there at all as JR could be making it up as a way to emphasize an intruder going out the window (which I personally believe is why he mentioned it). At least two other people were in that basement before JR was that morning, and if that stuff was there at all it could have been put there by them. It also could have been put there by JR himself when he went on his lone and long visit to the basement. The only reason to question JR about this stuff in front of the door is to see if he's lying about it. It would already have been known by Smit and Kane if that stuff was there or not when the other people who were in the basement before JR testified about it. Did those other people say anything about there being stuff in front of that door or that they put it there themselves? Seeing as the only person that says anything about this stuff in front of the door appears to be JR, I doubt it.

Smit didn't think that it was logical or very possible for an intruder to have put that stuff in front of the door and go out the window, which I already showed from that bit of the transcript. Although Smit ran with the window intruder theory anyway despite a multitude of JR lies in that interview. Here it is again...
1 LOU SMIT: The thing I'm trying to figure
2 out in my mind then is, if an intruder went
3 through the door, he'd almost have to pull the
4 chair behind him.
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That's correct.
6
7 LOU SMIT: Because that would have been
8 his exit?
9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
10 LOU SMIT: Okay.
11 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It was blocked. He'd
12 have to move something to get into the room.
13 LOU SMIT: And he would have had to move
14 it back, if he was in there trying to get out, is
15 that correct?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
17 LOU SMIT: So that's not very logical as
18 far as --
19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think it is. I mean if this
20 person is that bizarrely clever to have not left
21 any good evidence, but left all these little funny
22 little clues around, they certain are clever
23 enough to pull the chair back when they left.

 

[Cypros]

The person who posted the link to the floor plan was me. While it is a good floor plan in that it reflects how the rooms connected, where the doors and windows were located, etc., we don't know if it accurately reflects which way the doors swung. The person who posted the floor plans at that site says themselves they've never been in the house. I didn't post that link to the floor plans to show which way the doors swung open, but to show how the rooms were connected, where the doors and windows were located, etc. Personally, I don't much care which way the doors swung because I believe if there was any chair and other stuff in front of that door at all it was put there by JR himself.

Thanks, Paging.

The floor plan the web site is exactly the same as the floor plan in PMPT. I believe that the person who posted the plan on the website, "borrowed" the plan from the book and then added all the notations on locations of items related to the crime. I don't see any notation in PMPT as to who produced the plan, but I believe Schiller is personally familiar with the house and investigators normally create floor plans of crimes scenes as part of the investigation so I assume this is that plan. I agree that it may not have all details exactly right, but the photograph of the train room door shows that it did open inward. But as you said it really doesn't matter.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is that the window is of no relevance ot this crime.

 

[Cypros]

So if Fleet had already been in the wine room checking it, why did JR have to move boxes to get in there later?? Either Fleet put the boxes and chair back in place, or they weren't there when he went into the wine room OR JR slipped up in his testimony and was remembering moving the boxes and chair during the early morning hours of the 26th---before LE was ever called.

JR did not move boxes to get to the WINE CELLAR. He claims he moved boxes to get to the TRAIN/HOBBY ROOM (the room with the broken window). They are two different rooms with two different accesses. Please look at the floor plan.

 

[s_finch]

JR did not move boxes to get to the WINE CELLAR. He claims he moved boxes to get to the TRAIN/HOBBY ROOM (the room with the broken window). They are two different rooms with two different accesses. Please look at the floor plan.

You're right, my mistake. Thank you.