Exhume Jonbenet's Body; Why Not?

[Toltec]

Did Doctor Meyer take tissue samples...anyone?

I do not believe for one second that a stungun was used...and so does John and Patsy Ramsey. John does not want to disturb his daughters body because of fear of finding something more incriminating period.

 

[Ivy]

I don't believe in the stun gun theory either. The Rs like to flash it around as "evidence" of an intruder, but even if it could be shown that JonBenet had been zapped with a stun gun, it wouldn't be evidence of an intruder.

LE was already being accused of picking on the Ramseys, so why would LE demand the body be exhumed and leave themselves open to even more negative publicity, especially when the exhumation would accomplish nothing toward solving the case? After all, even if the marks were shown to be stun gun marks, they wouldn't indicate who made them. They could have been made by an intruder, or they could have been made by one of the Ramseys. And if one of the Ramseys, which one?
___
IMO

 

[LovelyPigeon]

In order to present proof of a stun gun against a defendant in court, the stun gun used would have to be presented and expert testimony given that the stun gun could have made the marks on the particular victim.

At the very least, it would have to be legally established that the defendant had possession of or access to an identical stun gun at the time the victim was injured.

Evidence of a stun gun used on JonBenét would be only IF a suspect is charged and can be connected with a stun gun that can scientifically be shown capable of making the marks in the photographs of JonBenét's body.

There is no stun gun to use as evidence against the Ramseys. If a Ramsey were ever charged, expert testimony would be presented that the Ramseys did not own or have access to a stun gun but that the marks were made by a stun gun with certain physical characteristics.

 

[Honeybee]

"If law enforcement wanted to exhume the body they would not need the parents' permission. LE would need a judge's permission. "

You're right, LP. All the authorities need is a court order to exhume the body and they do not need the Ramseys' permission at all.

But in order to admit this is the case, (as it definitely is) it would have to be admitted that in one instance at least the Ramseys can't be blamed. Few of the posters here are prepared to do that no matter what the facts are.

 

[BlueCrab]

"If law enforcement wanted to exhume the body they would not need the parents' permission. LE would need a judge's permission. "

You're right, LP. All the authorities need is a court order to exhume the body and they do not need the Ramseys' permission at all.

But in order to admit this is the case, (as it definitely is) it would have to be admitted that in one instance at least the Ramseys can't be blamed. Few of the posters here are prepared to do that no matter what the facts are.

It's a moot question anymore. The body is likely nothing but a skeleton after being buried for seven years. A child's body completes putrefaction after about five years.

JMO

 

[Honeybee]

I don't know anything about the decomposition of human bodies, Bluecrab, but I take you at your word, there's nothing left to examine.

This can't be blamed on the Ramseys either.

IMO

 

[akashana]

It's been 14 years. Now that there is new activity on the case, I wonder if it would be possible to glean any useful evidence from her remains. If the police do indeed plan to delve deeper into the case, it seems as if exhumation could possibly yield some long-sought answers.

Does anyone know if after all these years a body could still harbor clues to the murder?

 

[DeeDee249]

It's been 14 years. Now that there is new activity on the case, I wonder if it would be possible to glean any useful evidence from her remains. If the police do indeed plan to delve deeper into the case, it seems as if exhumation could possibly yield some long-sought answers.

Does anyone know if after all these years a body could still harbor clues to the murder?

Doubtful. The information LE needs in in the soft tissue (vaginal area, and the sites of the alleged "stun gun" marks. She's buried in Georgia, a very warm, humid climate. Even graves that have cement liners (illegal in some States) are not waterproof, and water (and insects) hasten decomposition.

 

[cynic]

It’s entirely possible that JBR would be sufficiently preserved had she been buried in Boulder; however, as DeeDee has suggested, the conditions in Atlanta are less than favorable.
The rate of decomposition of a body depends on a large number of variables: temperature, soil acidity, access to the body by insects and other scavengers, moisture, quality of embalming, burial container, burial location (mausoleum or in-ground).
Decomposition is basically the process of your own bacteria eating you from the inside out, with help from some external “friends.” Embalming can slow the decomposition process by flushing away the majority of the bacteria and rendering other tissues "inedible," but no corpse is (typically) buried in a completely sterile state.

Putrefaction will proceed at a slower rate in cooler temperatures, with freezing suspending the process all-together, in those who are thin, in infants, those who are found in water, those who die in a dry environment, whether cold or warm, those who are found lying on a stone surface and in some cases in which the person has been buried.
In reference to those who have been buried, whether putrefaction is hasten or delayed will be determined by the depth of burial, temperature of the soil, water table, the natural drainage of the burial site and the quality of construction and water tightness of the coffin. If the decedent is buried deep, in well drained soil, especially clay soil, whose coffin is water tight, the process of putrefaction will be substantively delayed. If however, the gravesite is shallow, the soil is moist with poor drainage or the water table is high and the coffin is not water tight the rate of putrefaction will be hastened. However, even without embalming a body buried in a sufficiently dry environment may be well preserved for decades. It is generally agreed that an unembalmed adult buried deep in well drained soil, with a water tight coffin, will be reduced to a skeleton in approximately 10 years, whereas a child will become a skeleton in approximately 5 years. There is a general axiom referred to as “Casper’s dictum” which provides an overall perspective to the putrefaction process, “one week of putrefaction in air is equivalent to two weeks in water, which is equivalent to 8 weeks buried in soil, given the same environmental temperatures.”

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZR160xPmbs8J:forensicmd.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/late-postmortem-changes1.doc+LATE+POSTMORTEM+CHANGES/DECOMPOSITION&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

 

[joeskidbeck]

I live about 90 miles from where JonBenet is buried and DeeDee is right about the humidity here. It can be unbelievable in the summer months. Anyway, my dad died in 2001 and when we made the funeral arrangements the director asked if we wanted to purchase a vault. I had never been involved in making any kind of arrangements and didn't really know the purpose for these vaults. He told us the one we bought was guaranteed for 700 years. This meant that no water, bugs, or anything for that matter could penetrate the vault and get to the coffin or my dad's body. I am wondering if the Ramsey's purchased a vault for JonBenet (it is not mandatory in Georgia) and if they did, would that have helped to preserve her remains.
Does anybody know of any morticians who post here? I would love to ask one a few questions. If LE is really beginning to heat up this investigation, it could possibly come to exhuming her body. Personally, I don't give any credence to the stun gun theory, but there could possibly be other evidence to be discovered. It seems to me that there were a few things the Ramseys wanted buried with her that could be hiding important information.

 

[DeeDee249]

In order for JB to be exhumed without her father's permission, a warrant has to be issued. That means the DA has to ask a judge for it, and has to have a sufficiently serious reason for doing so. Obviously, JR does not want it. Let's face it, the RST does not want her exhumed, and does not want any further evidence to be obtained from her body.

 

[BBB167893]

It wouldn't be necessarily hopeless. Medgar Evers's body was buried for almost 30 years in the Deep South before it was exhumed, and he was almost untouched by the elements.

 

[DeeDee249]

It wouldn't be necessarily hopeless. Medgar Evers's body was buried for almost 30 years in the Deep South before it was exhumed, and he was almost untouched by the elements.

Yes, that's true. But every case is different, and unfortunately with JB they wouldn't know unless they tried. And they don't want to try. If this DA would put his money where his mouth is, he'd go to a judge (one that isn't "friends" with the R defense attouneys) and get a warrant, exhume the body and see of there is enough soft tissue left to give them some answers.

 

[Trocaria]

Just wanted to chime in here regarding the possible state of JBR's human remains.

This was a full post autopsy. Embalming a fully posted case will actually render better results of long term preservasion than the standard embalming routine.

With a full post, meaning that the brain has been removed together with the organs, the mortician will be working harder than usual to ensure that the body will be viewable without looking too odd and most importantly, without a tell-tale smell.

The fact that the organs are now in a seperate bag is a BIG plus. Cavity fluid is poured into the bag which is sealed up tight. The body is then embalmed; due to cuts that have been made on various artories and veins, the majority of the formaldahyde will be running into the abdomen cavity, (and needs to be siphined out quickly otherwise the fumes and smell can be overwhelming!)

Most morticians will also go ahead and bring up other vessels to embalm with such as the femorals in the legs as a precaution in order to ensure all over distribution. If they're smart, in a crime case like this, they may opt to "hit 'em hard!" with a high index of solution which can also help to preserve "evidence" so to speak.

I would refer you all to a child abuse murder case in White Bear, MN where the body of a murdered boy was brought up 20 years after his murder. The mortician, knowing that this day might come, had treated the body with everything he had in order to preserve as much of the tissue as possible.
The result was quite mummified...but the bruises and marks were just as readable and clear as they had been 20 years before when the mortician questioned the offical finding of the boy having died from the "flu".

In JBR's case, my concern would be the fact that they buried her in a wood casket as opposed to metal. Metals will hold up better than wood, thus protecting the remains a little longer. I only hope that a top of the line vault was used in conjunction with the burial.

This has been a very long way to say that yes, she may still be very much intact.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Just wanted to chime in here regarding the possible state of JBR's human remains.

This was a full post autopsy. Embalming a fully posted case will actually render better results of long term preservasion than the standard embalming routine.

With a full post, meaning that the brain has been removed together with the organs, the mortician will be working harder than usual to ensure that the body will be viewable without looking too odd and most importantly, without a tell-tale smell.

The fact that the organs are now in a seperate bag is a BIG plus. Cavity fluid is poured into the bag which is sealed up tight. The body is then embalmed; due to cuts that have been made on various artories and veins, the majority of the formaldahyde will be running into the abdomen cavity, (and needs to be siphined out quickly otherwise the fumes and smell can be overwhelming!)

Most morticians will also go ahead and bring up other vessels to embalm with such as the femorals in the legs as a precaution in order to ensure all over distribution. If they're smart, in a crime case like this, they may opt to "hit 'em hard!" with a high index of solution which can also help to preserve "evidence" so to speak.

I would refer you all to a child abuse murder case in White Bear, MN where the body of a murdered boy was brought up 20 years after his murder. The mortician, knowing that this day might come, had treated the body with everything he had in order to preserve as much of the tissue as possible.
The result was quite mummified...but the bruises and marks were just as readable and clear as they had been 20 years before when the mortician questioned the offical finding of the boy having died from the "flu".

In JBR's case, my concern would be the fact that they buried her in a wood casket as opposed to metal. Metals will hold up better than wood, thus protecting the remains a little longer. I only hope that a top of the line vault was used in conjunction with the burial.

This has been a very long way to say that yes, she may still be very much intact.

Thank you for the information, Trocaria. With that expensive slab of concrete on top of JonBenet's grave, one would think the Ramseys would surely have purchased an expensive vault, unless of course, the wooden coffin had a purpose....

 

[eileenhawkeye]

It seems that it is John Ramsey that is putting a stop to JBR being exhumed. I believe he said that it's disrespectful? That sounds like an excuse to me. I really hope JBR is exhumed one day and the mortician took that possibility into account.

Also, does anyone else found the thought of them opening JonBenet's casket and seeing her in her pageant dress, tiara, and blonde curls 14 years after she died just so creepy? If she was bones now, that would be one thing, but to know she might still be intact just gives me the shivers.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Shivers for sure, Eileen, but just think, if it would help her to finally rest in peace, it would be worth it. I guess the thing is, if Karma means for her body to still be able to give evidence, then it will be there. But we have to remember that before this would happen, someone in Boulder is going to have to man-up and get that warrant issued. Wonder if there are any real men left in Boulder?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Does the victim's family have any say in whether the body is exhumed? I know that John doesn't want it done and he can use his connections to make sure his request is honored. But let's say this case involved a working class family who doesn't want their child exhumed, does that matter? Does LE take into account what the family wants before exhuming their child? Or not in cases where the child was murdered and it's still unsolved?

 

[joeskidbeck]

Does the victim's family have any say in whether the body is exhumed? I know that John doesn't want it done and he can use his connections to make sure his request is honored. But let's say this case involved a working class family who doesn't want their child exhumed, does that matter? Does LE take into account what the family wants before exhuming their child? Or not in cases where the child was murdered and it's still unsolved?

Eileen, if there is a possibility that her body could yield evedence that would point to her killer, the da's office in Boulder can get a warrant and have her exhumed no matter what John Ramsey thinks. Now, JR could give permission (with no warrant needed) and maybe we could find out who killed her. He will NEVER give his permission, but it wouldn't be needed with a warrant.
Becky

 

[madeleine]

What do they need for such a warrant?I mean,what does the affidavit have to say.Don't they usually get exhumation warrants when there's new evidence that might be corroborated with what they would find if exhuming the body?