Explain to me the "cadaver" scent thing

Discussion in 'Madeleine McCann' started by pedinurse, Sep 9, 2007.

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  1. pedinurse

    pedinurse Former Member

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    Can someone please explain this concept to me? Now, I know that physiologic changes in a body (breakdown, decomposition) can make the "cadavar" scent, but I don't understand how if Maddie was killed in the room and immediately moved from the room, how could the dog immediately alert on a "cadavar" scent? Are they basically saying she was kept in the room for some time dead?
    Am I missing something? Fill in some gaps for me? Am I a retard? :doh:
     
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  3. dingo

    dingo Former Member

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    I need it explained very slowly to me aswell:D
     
  4. Angie4b1g

    Angie4b1g New Member

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    I think that's what they are saying, yes. That it takes 2 hours before the cadaver scent appears. So, they are saying that she had to have been dead in the room for 2+ hours before being moved.
     
  5. concernedperson

    concernedperson Former Member

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    I posted a link regarding the same. Most cadaver dogs can pick up a scent at 2 hours some a little before. It takes a while for the scent to develop as well as decomposition to occur. So, if the dogs were able to scent it stands to reason that there was a body in the apartment for 2 hours before it was removed.

    With that said, if the rental car had the same scenting 3 weeks later and it was on Kate's clothes, the car key, the cuddle cat and elsewhere then a body had to be in the rental car. Again, that indicates the remains were moved.
     
  6. dingo

    dingo Former Member

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    Thankyou Girls ,you explained it well.
     
  7. Texana

    Texana Overreaching

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    Different dogs are trained to scent on different things. Some dogs track live persons, so they are trained to follow certain living scents. Others are trained specifically to locate dead people (some even trained to locate bodies in water) where the biological gases and chemicals given off as a body decomposes, overwhelm or mix with the scent of a living person. The cadaver dogs are more specifically trained to pick up the chemicals of a decomposing body, as opposed to the unique scent of a living person.

    If a cadaver dog alerts, it has found the presence of a dead body. It doesn't specifically denote which person, unlike the dogs that search for living people, which will only alert for the scent they've been offered via personal items of the missing person.

    I have been looking and looking at information on cadaver dogs and I can't find the speficif reference that it has to be at least two hours for a body to be dead before a dog will alert. So I haven't been able to confirm if it is a scientific issue, that the body just does not issue enough chemicals until about two hours have passed (knowing that body immediately begins to decompose once life ceases) for a dog to detect, OR if it is more a case of the average dog does not alert reliably enough times until the body has, on average, been deceased at least two hours.

    That would be a significant fact either way because it would change a possible time line. If a really good dog can alert sooner, it would narrow the amount of time a body would have be deceased. If it is more a chemical/mathemical kind of situation for the dog to detect, then the two hour timeframe is more certain.

    I'm going to keep looking.
     
  8. concernedperson

    concernedperson Former Member

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    Here is a trial done where they talk about the time frame.

    http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
     
  9. colomom

    colomom Inactive

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    Sorry folks, I just realized that this thread was here. I opened a special thread specifically about the dogs. Hope I don't confuse you all....
     
  10. CaliKid

    CaliKid Former Member

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    From what I've read, one of the universities in Tennessee has something called The Body Farm in which cadavers in various stages of decomp and from different manners of death are studied. This is where the training of cadaver dogs began. Scientists are trying to isolate the different scents picked up by the dogs and turn them into chemical compositions so that they can be created in laboratories. Once that is accomplished, it will be possible to train the dogs using synthetic scents and much less expensive.
     
  11. Texana

    Texana Overreaching

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    Thanks CP! That was perfect!

    So, according to that article, where the dogs' response was tested: while a really, really good dog might scent as soon as an hour and a half--all dogs responded within the 2.5-3 hour range.
     
  12. Angie4b1g

    Angie4b1g New Member

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    So if she was dead for 2 hours in that room before the body was moved... When did they move her? Before dinner or after dinner but before they reported her missing?
     
  13. Rino

    Rino Former Member

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    I'm guessing during dinner so Kate would be able to announce They've taken her to those who might not be involved. Just guessing
     
  14. delilah

    delilah New Member

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    Useful stuff. I've been trying to find out more about cadaver dog capability too, but from a slightly different angle (ie I am sitting on the fence and want to look at other possible explanations for the dogs alerting - if indeed they did as none of this reporting has been confirmed.)

    What I would like to know is how long after a person has been in contact with a dead body would the dog still alert? ie if you had been in contact with a person dead for over 2 hours three months earlier, would the dog still pick up the scent?

    Also I wasn't aware that the dogs scented on a personal belonging of the deceased. I think it is simply alerting on the decomposing of the body, any body.

    The stuff I've read also suggests the best trained dogs can alert after a person had been dead for 1.5 hours (and the Brit dogs are supposed to be the best trained in the world). But 2 hours + is the norm for most cadaver dogs.
     
  15. Texana

    Texana Overreaching

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    That's a good question about how long the cadaver scent would remain. I think it would have to do with how many chemical processes the item went through (water, soap, heat) and how strongly those processes were, plus time.
     
  16. concernedperson

    concernedperson Former Member

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  17. Edwards20

    Edwards20 New Member

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    http://www.portarthurpd.com/k9.html

    http://www.orgsites.com/ga/dogs-south/_pgg1.php3



    I have been searching for the past 30 minutes on this. There is an abundant amount of information available. However, there are several types of search dogs. Typically cadaver dogs are not used until death is "suspected". When looking for a live scent, a different type of dog would be used.

    With that being said, are we certain the dogs were "cadaver" dogs ?
     
  18. Barnaby

    Barnaby New Member

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    Yes the dog used was definitely a cadaver dog that had been successful in finding bodies before.
     
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