Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #3

[BetteDavisEyes]

Looks like quotes are messed up. My name is on the quote you posted, but the screen I am posting this message to shows it is a quote by momrids6

I have alerted a mod about the broken quotes. This has been happening for a couple of days now. I noticed that a comment was attributed to me that I had not made. I hope the problem is addressed promptly.

 

[K_Z]

Upthread there was a ref to to hosp "barricading" hosp entry doors, before Monday presser w. Jahi's family.
"Barricade is also the term used in the dailymail.com (FWIW).

To me, from dailymail pix, it appears the barricade is not to prevent Jahi's fam from entering hosp,
but to keep ppl at presser from preventing -either inadvertently or purposefully -
other CHO patients and fam from entering and exiting.

JM2cts and I could be wrong. :seeya:

I continue to be astonished that the hospital is continuing to permit these press conferences and large crowds on their property. They are under no obligation to do so. IMO, the safety, access, and security issues for all the patients and staff should mandate that these large gatherings and demonstrations should be moved elsewhere, to another public space, off the hospital property. IMO.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

RSBM: The one constant about this story is that it is constantly changing!

For myself, I am glad that how the hospital handled this case is being investigated. The results of the investigation should be completed long before any civil litigation is resolved and if there were any procedural errors they can be corrected. And if there were NOT any procedural errors made by the hospital/staff, that can become known, too.

P.S. I want to be BeginnersLuck when I grow up as a poster. Always so calm, so thoughtful, so respectful. :rose:

Thank you! I don't always see my posts that way and sometimes after rereading them, I wish I would have worded things differently. I try not to allow my emotions to interfere, but it's hard sometimes. I am also a very fact based person, so I tend to look at things from that perspective and I feel that it sometimes may come across as though I don't feel the empathy for others in these cases. That is not true.

The reason why I wanted to bring up the psychological aspect of this as it pertains to the family, is because I know what they witnessed was very traumatic. I also know that those that experience traumatic events, have much better outcomes if they begin to receive counseling right after the event instead of months or years later. No good "counselor" would encourage or tell a patient that Jahi will get better. A good counselor would help the patient work through their loss, so they are able to understand their feelings and actions.

Jahi's mother fully expressed that her daughter will get better. The thought of her being led on by these others, with their stories, treatments and cures, bothers me. Jahi's mother, will be putting her daughter in others hands, across the country and there is no telling what they will do to her with their "miracle cures". As Jahi's mother watches her deteriorate and her heart eventually gives out, there will be a time when Jahi's mother will look back and be angry that she was lied to. Throughout this whole time period, her grief and heeling process will be prolonged.

I do not only care about what happens to Jahi and respect for her, but I also care about the family.

(This is if this should all play out as those are wishing it will)

 

[Donjeta]

When I heard the ruling, my body shuddered with relief. Because at that same time, Nailah Winkfield, Jahi’s mother, sat at Children’s Hospital Oakland praying for time.

You see, Children’s had fortified itself to carry out its plan of execution. It had cleared out the family from the waiting room, tripled the security, barricaded the front doors and had its plan in place to come into Jahi’s room and turn off a switch that would stop the ventilator and, within a minute or two, Jahi’s heart. Nailah was sitting, praying, as if she were on death row. When I reached her and told her of the stay, I heard her sob, “Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!” She said, “I love my daughter. She’s a good girl, she doesn’t deserve to die.”

They strengthened the security as they should have. There are plenty of crazies out there sending out threats on Twitter, you never know what one of them gets in their head to do. It is their duty to try to make sure all patients, families and staff are safe. This is already a big enough tragedy, no need to make it a bigger one.

Since he writes that Nailah Winkfield was waiting in Children's, and uses the wording, "come into Jahi's room", as opposed to go into it (although he wasn't there) I tend to think that Nailah Winkfield was in the room.

One of the issues, is that the hospital is refusing to fit a feeding tube to the patient as they say they don’t operate on dead people.

The operation must be carried out before a care facility can take her in.

'I don’t believe what the hospital are saying,' said Mrs Winkfield.

'If she was an organ donor she would have everything to make her body healthy,' she said.

'In fact she would have much better treatment if she was an organ donor but since I want her to live she doesn’t have proper treatment.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eteriorated-moments-woke-routine-surgery.html

The uncle said the same thing. Dr. Byrne speaking through them? Do they not understand that if she was an organ donor she would have been buried by now?

 

[meme4]

So now he is trying to start a riot in Oakland? It isn't hard to do. He thinks maybe civil unrest will encourage the payout?

Yes, I think that's exactly what he thinks......How far is this going to go, before someone comes to there senses.....Stirring the masses is not gonna help this family, they love this child, I understand that, but the child that they knew no longer exists.........She just doesnt.........

 

[seattlechiquita]

I continue to be astonished that the hospital is continuing to permit these press conferences and large crowds on their property. They are under no obligation to do so. IMO, the safety, access, and security issues for all the patients and staff should mandate that these large gatherings and demonstrations should be moved elsewhere, to another public space, off the hospital property. IMO.

Children's has truly gone above and beyond this one family and their dead child. Truly. How can anyone say otherwise boggles my mind.

 

[MEN3C]

At this new care facility, would they not have to have a physician? And would that physician be willing to write orders and notes on a deceased person forever?

As per the bleeding, you have to remember that the internal carotid artery lies just about 2cm posterior to the tonsils....

 

[al66pine]

... Drs and hospitals regularly give a lot of free care to people that can't pay. ....
In Jahi's case, the Chief of Neurology at Stanford, who did the last brain death examination, donated all his fee to charity.

BBM SBM

Not to be snarky, but there is a difference between a person (dr, atty, or ditch digger, anyone) providing services gratis
versus person accepting payment for services, then donating payment to charity.

In either case, the person provides services and presumably, the services-recipient benefits.
In the second case, the service provider donating payment to a charity may (or may not, depending on individual situation) have an income tax deduction benefit w charitable donation.

Regardless, thanks to the Stanford dr and to any person providing services.

O/T
During the autumn fed govt shut-down/furlough, a US senator said he would donate his salary for the period to a charity, to show his 'sympathy' for govt employees not being paid. I'd be curious to see if his 2013 IRS Schedule A reflects that donation.

JM2cts. :seeya:

 

[Donjeta]

At this new care facility, would they not have to have a physician? And would that physician be willing to write orders and notes on a deceased person forever?

Allyson Scerri wrote the court that they are going to hire a pediatrician to direct Jahi's care, which implies to me that they currently don't have any such physician in their staff (might explain why the hospital can't get a doctor from the facility on the phone...)

 

[sherbetjello]

At this new care facility, would they not have to have a physician? And would that physician be willing to write orders and notes on a deceased person forever?

As per the bleeding, you have to remember that the internal carotid artery lies just about 2cm posterior to the tonsils....

Welcome to Websleuths!

:gathering:

 

[Zuri]

Up thread, a poster mentioned that there are long term care facilities that take care of vent dependent patients throughout the country. Provided they have been contacted, Why have none of these already established facilities offered to accept Jahi as a patient? TIA

 

[K_Z]

Gitana1, or any attorneys, I would be interested in your take on Douglas Straus's filing in response to Dolans requests for TRO. Particularly his argument about neutral laws of general applicability, which I thought was an excellent argument.

I'd also be interested in your take on Straus's discussion about the right to hold beliefs, versus the exercise of those beliefs when the actions are opposition to well established law. (Paraphrasing.) I have considered that a lot.

For example, some middle eastern cultures strongly believe in honor killings, which are legal in some places in the middle east. However, if someone from that culture engaged in honor killings in the U.S., it would clearly be murder one. But we cannot prevent people in the U.S. from "believing" that honor killings are "right". We establish lawful guidelines for behavior, but can't regulate beliefs and values.

Personally, I found Straus's arguments to be very well grounded and supported, but I do have a bias. It seems Dolan's arguments rely on asking the court to ignore statute and profoundly redefine death, and redefine parental "rights" as they pertain to defining death. A fascinating read, BTW. (Link to actual documents is upstream-- I'm sorry I don't have it handy, but will find and bump it.)

If a judge or appellate court rules in opposition to clearly established precedence and established law, isn't that "legislating from the bench?"

 

[Herat]

Allyson Scerri wrote the court that they are going to hire a pediatrician to direct Jahi's care, which implies to me that they currently don't have any such physician in their staff (might explain why the hospital can't get a doctor from the facility on the phone...)

I'm beginning to wonder if there is ANY kind of licensed medical professional at the facility: behavioral therapist, psychiatric therapist, dietician, CRNA, anybody at all?

If this was a real option, why hasn't any of her family actually visited there to see for themselves? Her LVN grandmother, for example?

 

[Steft50]

Up thread, a poster mentioned that there are long term care facilities that take care of vent dependent patients throughout the country. Provided they have been contacted, Why have none of these already established facilities offered to accept Jahi as a patient? TIA

Just a guess but I think because not all vented people are brain dead but Jahi is. It does make a difference I believe.

 

[MEN3C]

Allyson Scerri wrote the court that they are going to hire a pediatrician to direct Jahi's care, which implies to me that they currently don't have any such physician in their staff (might explain why the hospital can't get a doctor from the facility on the phone...)

I will see if I can look up the laws in NY State regarding this - I have no idea if the pediatrician can get in trouble by the state medical board if he or she goes against the accepted standard of care and decides to treat a deceased body as a living person. I think in most cases, physicians are given a wide berth in terms of individualizing care for their patients since no two patients are alike, but in this case, the diagnosis of brain death seems very definitive.

Welcome to Websleuths!

:gathering:

Thank you, this seems like a great community. I've been looking at threads and it seems that people tend to be much more civil than other places, which is refreshing

 

[katydid23]

My brother is an attorney that works quite regularly with this same hospital. Actually, he often works against them because he is a PI attorney in Oakland. I asked him about this hospital and he said they are highly respected and he believes they are very good overall.

I asked him about this particular tragedy. And obviously, he does not have the medical records. But it surprised me that he said that sometimes things just 'go wrong' and it is not always anyone's fault. A child can die from an operation in spite of great medical care. That surprised me cuz he is in the business of 'blaming doctors'. But he said ,off the record, that sometimes things just go bad. No one's fault in particular. Her hemorrhaging was perhaps a natural bodily reaction to the surgery. And once that happened, so suddenly, there is not always much that can be done in time to stop it. Tragic.

 

[K_Z]

From the court documents (the hospital response)


page 69
http://www.scribd.com/doc/195185964...ec-30-2013-McMath-Civil-Rights-Lawsuit-filing

Well worth a read.

Bumping this with the link to court documents, with thanks to Donjeta. :seeya:

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I realize that hospice is intended for the care of the terminally ill, but could this be an option in allowing the family to take Jahi home or have her cared for in a hospice facility? I'm just trying to explore possible alternatives to having Jahi flown across the country to a facility that might not be equipped to deal with her condition - if that were to come to fruition. From a geographic standpoint, it's not practical for this family that resides in CA and would likely cause more stress in an already unbearably sad situation.

 

[Herat]

This is all gamesmanship, anyway.

Once she leaves the facility, Dolan loses his bully pulpit and the family has to leave their SF media envelope.

 

[meme4]

Just dont understand why they wanna take her to a building that looks like its been condemned with no one on staff....How do they think that will be of help to this child...I just cant get over what this child would think of the most personal parts of her life being talk about. She deserves dignity, I think its been lostand that to me is very sad...