Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

[SilkySifaka]

I don't really believe that it's about the facilities or the quality of the tests for the family. Finding flaws in the tests has never been their main argument, they're not saying that Jahi wasn't tested well enough, test better and then we might believe you. Rather they're saying (IMO) that it doesn't matter about the testing, they've chosen to believe that she can recover and their only medical witness to that effect didn't do any testing at all, he just asserted.

If one of the miracle cure guys could provide a test that can convince the family and bring them some peace it would be a way justify their free publicity run in the wake of a deceased child's tragedy but I have a hard time believing some of them would do anything for free.

It is such a tragic situation, i suppose though since Jahi isn't in any pain, i wish she could be taken home on life support until her heart stops. Her soul is free and it might just help ease the grief of the family.

 

[SilkySifaka]

People in persistent vegetative state are always considered alive.

I see your point about seeing a blank brain scan when mom thinks Jahi's responding to her voice etc. or purposefully moving.

But it seems extremely unlikely at this point that anyone would offer to do this for someone with a death certificate.

I know but they so often get killed by starvation and now we know some of them were probably alive and at least mentally suffering during the whole discussion and death. So i get a little emotional when we have discovered this and it might just have saved so many vegetative patients lives but not every hospital or hospice has one, I think they should be mandatory before life is terminated. At least you can ask the patient directly if they want to die.

Mom sees it this way i believe and no matter how much we say she is dead mom can't accept it. Anything that can help her should be done..as i said in many ways she is the patient now.

 

[Herat]

It is such a tragic situation, i suppose though since Jahi isn't in any pain, i wish she could be taken home on life support until her heart stops. Her soul is free and it might just help ease the grief of the family.

Not courting the media with daily press releases and media interviews, and, instead, turning and spending quiet time with her other children might also help ease the grief.

 

[Elley Mae]

Winkfield, refusing to believe her daughter is dead as long as her heart is beating, has gone to court to stop the machine from being disconnected. She wants to transfer Jahi to another facility and hoped to force Children's Hospital either to insert the tubes or to allow an outside doctor to do the procedures.

Grillo on Friday rejected the family's move to have the hospital insert the tubes, noting the girl could be moved with the ventilator and intravenous fluid lines she has now. He also refused to compel the hospital to permit an outside doctor perform the procedures on its premises.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/jahi-mcmaths-mom-clear-hospital-21417801

Hospital spokesman Sam Singer said that if the girl is not transferred by the deadline, her family would have to seek an extension or the ventilator would be removed.

Hospital lawyer Douglas Straus told reporters after Friday's state court hearing that he hopes the family will soon conclude the girl has passed away.

 

[Donjeta]

I know but they so often get killed by starvation and now we know some of them were probably alive and at least mentally suffering during the whole discussion and death. So i get a little emotional when we have discovered this and it might just have saved so many vegetative patients lives but not every hospital or hospice has one, I think they should be mandatory before life is terminated. At least you can ask the patient directly if they want to die.

Mom sees it this way i believe and no matter how much we say she is dead mom can't accept it. Anything that can help her should be done..as i said in many ways she is the patient now.

I think some severely disabled patients might have died sooner if people were able to ask them what they want.

 

[SilkySifaka]

Not courting the media with daily press releases and media interviews, and, instead, turning and spending quiet time with her other children might also help ease the grief.

But she believes Jahi is alive. If you believed your daughter was alive in a similar situation you would move heaven and earth to keep her so. The problem is the belief that Jahi isn't really dead. Or that she can come back to life. It doesn't matter that we see it as crazy, once you have that belief the only thing to do is to fight against the people "trying to kill" your daughter. I mean it is rational, as rational as a schizophrenic who believes their meds are poisoning them, not taking them. Or other cases of mental illness where reality is denied.

imo

 

[SilkySifaka]

I think some severely disabled patients might have died sooner if people were able to ask them what they want.

so do i but there will be others who fight to live, to listen to their families, to hear and experience what is happening in their lives and consider starvation horrific. I would. I can't imagine starving to death...it would be so frightening.

 

[popsicle]

It is such a tragic situation, i suppose though since Jahi isn't in any pain, i wish she could be taken home on life support until her heart stops. Her soul is free and it might just help ease the grief of the family.

bbm She can be. I wish the family would do so.

 

[jjenny]

so do i but there will be others who fight to live, to listen to their families, to hear and experience what is happening in their lives and consider starvation horrific. I would. I can't imagine starving to death...it would be so frightening.

Once Jahi's ventillator is turned off, the heart should stop quickly (whithin minutes).
She won't be "starved to death."

 

[MsSeal]

but in all the studies and eeg's etc of vegetative patients they never discovered the locked ins they have with the fmri. It has found dozens of people being treated as pvs's are actually alive, awake, conscious and able to talk to the doctors. This is what I hope mom would realize with that test, that Jahi can't talk to her and isn't talking to her when she thinks she is. At a specific time and place with direct questions where as all the evidence shows that it can prove someone conscious when considered a PVS at least which mom seems to believe

I have a question about this that medical experts could answer. Isn't an MRI machine a long tube that the patient has to be inside of for the test. I imagine they would have to disconnect the vent for a period of time and would need trained staff in case she were to go into cardiac arrest. How long would vent need to be disconnected for the test? I can see your point of having something that Jahi's mother can look at to see that there is complete lack of brain activity in a way that she could understand. Although with her heart still beating that would still leave her unconvinced IMO.

 

[Oetzi]

Just out of curiosity, have there been any articles concerning how other families currently in CHO PICU with their own children are dealing with this circus? It has to be horrible for them and I hope that the McMath family has shown some respect.

 

[jjenny]

Just out of curiosity, have there been any articles concerning how other families currently in CHO PICU with their own children are dealing with this circus? It has to be horrible for them and I hope that the McMath family has shown some respect.

I haven't seen a single article on that subject.

 

[Elley Mae]

Dead person starving?

 

[popsicle]

FRIDAY, JANUARY 3, 2014
The Long, Sad Death of Jahi McMath: The Circus in Oakland—There Are No Winners
<modsnip>

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-long-sad-death-of-jahi-mcmath.html

 

[SilkySifaka]

Dead person starving?

no just in what is believed to be a Persistant vegetative state they kill the person through starvation. The new mri shows many of those people may have been conscious and aware and not in a persistant vegetative state at all. How horrible. But the test could show mom in a way she can interact with that her daughter is dead.

 

[Elley Mae]

no just in what is believed to be a Persistant vegetative state they kill the person through starvation. The new mri shows many of those people may have been conscious and aware and not in a persistant vegetative state at all. How horrible. But the test could show mom in a way she can interact with that her daughter is dead.

This is not about a vegetative state, this is about a brain dead person. It has been verified by multiple Dr.s. Nothing to do with a PVS.

 

[Donjeta]

I have a question about this that medical experts could answer. Isn't an MRI machine a long tube that the patient has to be inside of for the test. I imagine they would have to disconnect the vent for a period of time and would need trained staff in case she were to go into cardiac arrest. How long would vent need to be disconnected for the test?

A MRI/ fMRI scan can take a long time so you couldn't keep non-breathing patients unventilated during all that. They'd be dead when they come out of the tube and the results would be moot.

Here's an article that talks about ventilated patients during MRI and they keep them ventilated by a travel ventilator and strip as much metal from the machine as possible.

http://www.criticalcarenews.com/upl...I_examinations_of_ventilated_ICU_patients.pdf

 

[Elley Mae]

"To date, they have been unwilling or unable to provide a physician to perform the procedures necessary, transportation, or a facility that would accept a dead person on a ventilator. Our hearts and thoughts go out to them in this tragic situation, but the statements being made by their attorney and some family members are misleading and untrue."

In addition to the coroner, a judge has declared Jahi brain dead as well. Doctors say there's no chance she will come back to life.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/03/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

 

[Softail]

Daniel Borenstein: Mischaracterizations of Jahi's condition ignites insane legal fight, politically charged national debate

Unfortunately, some news reporting contributes to the misunderstandings.

"Court blocks hospital from disconnecting Jahi McMath from life support," read a CNN website headline on Monday. While this newspaper thoughtfully explored the issue of brain death, it has also mischaracterized the legal fight as one of whether to maintain "life support." CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, NPR, Associated Press and the Washington Post did the same.

For all the legal maneuvering and public debate, nothing will change Jahi's tragic condition, and only time will begin to ease the horrific grief her mother feels. Those surrounding Winkfield would serve her best by providing support rather than fueling false hope

http://www.contracostatimes.com/dan...jahi-mcmaths-condition-have-helped?source=pkg

Someone here (Sorry, don't recall who), mentioned that this term needs to change. Perhaps to "Organ Support". I would agree with that, as this certainly isn't "life support" by any means. :twocents:

 

[Herat]

"To date, they have been unwilling or unable to provide a physician to perform the procedures necessary, transportation, or a facility that would accept a dead person on a ventilator. Our hearts and thoughts go out to them in this tragic situation, but the statements being made by their attorney and some family members are misleading and untrue."

In addition to the coroner, a judge has declared Jahi brain dead as well. Doctors say there's no chance she will come back to life.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/03/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/

The attorney also stated in court documents of Dec 18 that she was brain dead. Twice.