FBI considering hate crime charges against Zimmerman #1

[katydid23]

He didn't say he wasn't sure, he didn't say he didn't know, he didn't say I can't tell. He wouldn't have said I think he's black if he didn't think he was black. Just because he didn't say it until asked doesn't mean that he didn't know before he called them.

And the comparison to what Trayvon said isn't valid. GZ WAS following him, there is no disputing that. However, Trayvon wasn't doing anything suspicious or illegal, vast difference between the two and some mega leaps and stretches are being made here to try to turn it around.

I think the FBI will determine if any hate crime charges are filed. I don't think a hate crime will be brought up at his criminal trial.

And the statistics do not bear out any rampant black crime going on as has often been alleged.

How do we know if he was looking suspicious or not? If he wasn't looking suspicious then GZ would not have been calling the dispatcher about him.
It was not just his race, as 1/3 of the residents were black, so it had to be more than that.

And imo, the police reports do indicate there was a crime problem happening in the complex. It may have seemed 'nothing' in your estimation, but being home with your baby when two black males break into your home, in broad daylight, would be terrifying, imo.

 

[tehcloser]

I don't think it's growing....I think with social networking it's coming out into the open. I think it is a good thing to get our aggressions and fears out there so they can be resolved. jmo

bbm

Then you wouldn't have been in the 55%......lollllllllll. You know I'm kidding with ya. Sadly I think it is growing again. I've noticed that things like hate and tolerence rise and fall with the political climates. Right now we are in that cycle of slander, spin and slime. John Q. watches it every night and without even realizing it has effected him, he reacts to it. He goes out and in his day to day life he is more judgemental, quicker to flash. IMOOOOOOOOOO.

 

[Lovelymountains]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/18/u...ased-in-shooting-of-teenager.html?_r=3&ref=us

I believe I heard that allegation of a racial slur but the FBI sent it out for further testing since they could not determine this due to poor quality...

I wish this woman would step forward now that GZ has been arrested. I believed those critical of GZ did not step forward out of fear of repurcussions before his arrest..

I also believe GZ was itching to use his weapon on the next person he deemed suspicious...he would instigate this and then use the SYG defense..I believe he was a fatality waiting to happen. He would be viewed by his community as the hero having a trophy to brag about...he took a perp off the street and would glow in that...I believe GZ studied that statute inside and out only he interpeted wrong...you cannot instigate and fall back on the statute....

I believe we might see GZ taking a plea deal down the road for the State has the evidence to back the fact that, GZ should not have continued his pursuit, if not for that, TM would be breathing today...he had no authority to detain him, if that was his intent...

Good post. I remember a witness saying at the very beginning that a member of Sanford Police Force was coaching GZ what to say by mouthing.
"Self Defense." And if this is true, IMO, it's obstruction of justice. I can't link it, so IMO the police coached GZ. Also, the mother of the 13 year old said that pressure was put on her son to tell what he saw in accordance with what the police wanted him to say. So, IMO, if GZ didn't already know about SYG and SD he had some help and knew in short order. And how about the witness who was comforted by being told to not worry. The dead guy wasn't the one yelling for help. And then there's #6 who said that Trayvon was beating GZ in a "Mixed Martial Arts" manner who later conveniently left that out of his statement and he couldn't really tell if TM was the agressor. Mixed Martial Arts, indeed. He was ready to designate the deceased as some sort of champion kick-boxer. Maybe he changed his tale after learning that TM was not a champion anything, just a black teen-aged kid who was walking to a home in which he was a guest.
As far as I know GZ had not yet instituted a dress-code for "His" neighborhood, so TM was free to wear whatever he wished, a hoodie, a sweatshirt, etc.

 

[JBean]

Does anyone think that the justified or unjustified profiling of black males was a secret to Trayvon?
I am sure he was well aware probably from a young age. I don;t think that 17yo's are the poster children of maturity and probably knew he was being followed for reasons related to his age and race-(again possibly justified due to recent burglaries or possibly unjustified due to racism).Consequently, I don't see Trayvon surmising that George was following him because there had been a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood recently and he might fit the description.
So, perhaps Trayvon profiled George as another non black male that was suspicious of him for no apparent reason or based on any obvious behavior of Trayvons. I do believe that George made Trayvon aware of the gun and that was the turning point. JMHO

I feel strongly that George created the opportunity for the perfect storm of profiling and prejudices to come together in a deadly way.

Perhaps he should have anticipated it. I think there are those in society that think he did anticipate it and that is what is upsetting. Personally I don't think he anticipated what his poor judgement was going to bring about.

If he is going to be watcher of the people for the people, he needs to be acutely aware of what his actions may represent to those around him, to make sure his actions are not percieved by the recipient as threatening for fear someone will end up hurt or worse-and this is a case in point.

 

[katydid23]

I would just like to point out, again, that Crump has no hand to play except for in a civil court setting. He is not going to be at the prosecution or defense table at a trial, is he?

I'm not willing to say the problem was teenage kids. I don't know that, and I don't see how you do either? Some of the burglaries were unsolved, and in the other cases, I don't remember a teenager being the suspect necessarily. I'd have to go read back over that to say one way or the other though.

GZ did NOT know every single person in that neighborhood, so there could have been any number of people who were unfamiliar to him walking around at any given time. Why he honed in on this particular person and pegged him as suspicious can only be debated.

JMO

Crump has no hand to play? I thought many here were giving him credit for making this trial even possible?

Crump has been front and center, even having a couple of other spokespersons, fanning out and giving play-by-plays of the pretrial activity.

Crump will be a major player, IMO, and will have a large effect upon public opinion and perhaps upon the actions of the judge. I think it is quite possible that the judge will feel intimidated, and not feel comfortable fully considering the SYG implications of the trial.

 

[Lovelymountains]

But WHY did he have to say he was "WHITE?" If I use the some thinking on some posts and reverse it.....it is because TM hates WHITES. WE could then say THAT is why TM attacked GZ....because he hated whites. We could say he thought ALL whites were "weird." We could make TM a racist too. Holler than he would have reacted differently to a BLACK Watch Captain! OMG...WHY would TM profile GZ as "WHITE?"

Silly, right.

That is what others say here in reverse with no better proof. This should NOT be about race. And both TM and GZ were "describing" what they saw.

I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't think that's silly at all. Given the state of race relations in this country for the last 200 or so years, our black citizens are wary of a white man following them in the dark. And as it turned out in this case, with good reason.

 

[stmarysmead]

If GZ decided TM was suspicious because a young black neighbor had been just arrested for those breakins and GZ's reasoning was because this kid is black he's up to no good and I need to following him, essentially TM is dead because of his skin color since it was because he was black that started GZ's quest to follow TM in the first place.

Again, if TM was fearful which he expressed to his gf he had every right to stand his ground, too. GZ was the wiser of the two. GZ knew better than to remove himself from the car but did it anyway. TM is dead because both feared each other and their reasoning for being there in the first place. When it was GZ's responsibility to KNOW what he was suppose to do. A child is dead because GZ did not listen, did not follow the guidelines for the very program he helped set up. There is no excusing GZ's behavior. He was reckless and it caused someone to loose their life. He's has to be held accountable. There is no other way.

If you care to weigh it out. TM was more so on "his ground" only 70 yards away from where he was staying, than GZ was on his. jmo

It was not "one Black neighbor." The article I posted numerous times says a Black teen took GZ's bike, two other Black teens broke into a young Mother's house while she was home with her Baby. An AA neighbor STATES clearly that Black teenage crime is the "elephant in the living room."

So it was not ONE kid. That is untrue.

 

[Lovelymountains]

Crump has no hand to play? I thought many here were giving him credit for making this trial even possible?

Crump has been front and center, even having a couple of other spokespersons, fanning out and giving play-by-plays of the pretrial activity.

Crump will be a major player, IMO, and will have a large effect upon public opinion and perhaps upon the actions of the judge. I think it is quite possible that the judge will feel intimidated, and not feel comfortable fully considering the SYG implications of the trial.

I think we can both agree that we hope and expect that the judge wil fully consider the SYG implications of the trial.

 

[cityslick]

I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't think that's silly at all. Given the state of race relations in this country for the last 200 or so years, our black citizens are wary of a white man following them in the dark. And as it turned out in this case, with good reason.

Not any different than a white girl scared of a black man following her in the dark. Do you think that is because of stereotype or what is portrayed in the news when they report crime?

 

[annalia]

How do we know if he was looking suspicious or not? If he wasn't looking suspicious then GZ would not have been calling the dispatcher about him.
It was not just his race, as 1/3 of the residents were black, so it had to be more than that.

And imo, the police reports do indicate there was a crime problem happening in the complex. It may have seemed 'nothing' in your estimation, but being home with your baby when two black males break into your home, in broad daylight, would be terrifying, imo.

my bolding

Pardon me but I never said it was 'nothing'. And I never said it wasn't terrifying. But that is one crime, hardly what's being alleged that black kids were taking over the neighborhood committing rampant crime. The stats are what they are, some of them were stolen bikes, etc, goes ion everywhere, hardly justification for going after a kid with a loaded gun. And there's nowhere in the stats that say it was all black kids either.

That's not justification for going after one kid who was walking down the street. And how do I know he wasn't doing anything suspicious? Seriously? Just listening to GZ's calls bears that out. And I don't agree that if he wasn't doing anything suspicious GZ wouldn't have called, GZ's own past actions bear that out too.

I'm not about to make something up or exaggerate everything just to make Trayvon appear more "thuggish", GZ said what he said. Trayvon was walking down the street looking about. Something he had every right to do. There's video that shows him in the store.

Police reports showed there were 8 burglaries in 15 months, not all black kids. That has been twisted into rampant crime being committed by black kids, the neighborhood was under siege by black kids.

No one has ever said that GZ didn't have the right to call police, ever.

JMHO

 

[stmarysmead]

I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't think that's silly at all. Given the state of race relations in this country for the last 200 or so years, our black citizens are wary of a white man following them in the dark. And as it turned out in this case, with good reason.

The problem with staatements like yours, is that others could point to statistics of Black on White crime TODAY that are much higher than White on lack crime...for the reason Whites fear Blacks. We cannot allow one point of view to be reasonable and demand the the OTHER causative factor being left unsaid. Yes, some Blacks fear Whites because of history and some Whhites fear Blacks because of crime statistics.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

TM is dead because a vigilante refused to let LE do their job.

IMO and JMO

and his very own personal vendetta...his bicycle allegedly stolen right off the front porch of the home he rented...and we are to believe GZ is just this concerned citizen patrolling his community with a loaded weapon ready to fire at a moments notice?

GZ has huge issues self control, impulse control are two that are prevalent for me...his ex fiance tells it...see her police incident report where she states he began groping her breasts, she told him no, stop and he said, you're my woman and I can touch you if I want...just one to show his mentality of a control freak who needs to be viewed as king of his castle..you don't mess with GZ, the sheriff of TWR....self appointed CWC who really needs a reality check...he's nothing without his weapon...his allegedly crying in his cell while waiting bond, doesn't look like some courageous guy...I wish I'd have met him in that community...he'd be very sorry he met a survivor who doesn't take crap from a bully...he might beat my arse but guaranteed, I get two good shots in with my fists...no weapon...only a small man has to carry a weapon to appear big...

I believe he suffers from little man syndrome...ironic.... he is now fighting for his own life but I don't believe he will be free for long...Karma

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

Because she INSTANTLY became the hero. She even rejected the Grand Jury process, and said " No, I've got this." So she single handedly brought these charges, even upping them to second degree. So even if she loses, she can say ' look how hard I tried.'

Only because she knew it wasn't premediated murder or murder 1...that is what The Grand Jury is used for...so, she didn't need TGJ to convence for a 2nd degree murder charge..

She is NOT driven my politics or petitions, she is driven by the statutes her state has....she has an impeccable professional resume...she doesn't need to bow down to anyone or for anyone...she is driven by the laws of her state...

 

[stmarysmead]

TM made mistakes too. He was so close to home but did not go in. He was wandering about even if as a game to lose GZ...but unfortunately that added to the conclusion. GZ wanted to keep track of this stranger. Is there evidence that he went back and got the gun AFTER seeing TM? If not, the gun preceded him even KNOWING Tm was in the neighborhood...so carrying the gun had ZIP to do with TM or his RACE.

These are the things a diverse jury will hear, believe me. That, and a detailing of every crime. The truth as statistics, crime reports and arrest recrds from that year show them to be. No one will be able to argue ANYTHING but the truth in regard to those crimes, no matter what "we think."

 

[JBean]

It was not "one Black neighbor." The article I posted numerous times says a Black teen took GZ's bike, two otherBlack teens broke into a young Mother's house while she was home with her Baby. An AA neighbor STATES clearly that Black teenage crime is the "elephant in the living room."

So it was not ONE kid. That is untrue.

What I am reading is that George did follow Trayvon because he was a black male-but it was reasonable for him to do so based on recent activity in the neighborhood.


Do we think that Trayvon was aware that he may be followed for this reason? or perhaps only aware he may be followed for less noble reasons? What I am driving at is have we considered that a 17 yo might not get that big picture and take a man following him with a gun as threatening to his well being?

IMO we need to step back and look at the really big picture of our societal dynamics as opposed to the microcosm of the neighborhood to get a better understanding as to what may have happened that night.

JMHO of course.

 

[LynnM]

Zimmerman could have watched Trayvon all he wanted from his car. And if he thought that Trayvon was running to the back entrance to get out of the development then the quickest way to get there was in his car, not on foot with Trayvon having a head start. He can watch Trayvon or any other black teen until the cows come home, I don't care.

IMO, Zimmerman is rigid and authoritarian in his thinking as indicated by how unpopular he made himself at one job he lost by repeatedly calling HR to report both coworkers and supervisors for what he perceived as infractions or bad behavior. The problem that night was not that he was oriented to the safety of the community, it was that having made up his mind not that Trayvon was merely suspicious but that he was definitely a criminal, he never once thought that Trayvon might be an innocent teen with the right to be in that neighborhood. His thinking was inflexible. He classified Trayvon with those *advertiser censored**holes who always get away. He uttered a profanity about him.

That is not rational thinking. It's an interracial community, there are black teen males who live there. We've seen two of them, Ms. Brown's son and Ms. Green's son. We've heard from others like the black teen who said that Zimmerman wouldn't even speak to him and his friends when they greeted him when he was walking around the neighborhood. We've read that as a result of the housing market crash, there was a sizable population of renters with a lot of turnover. With 250 houses, Zimmerman could not possibly know everyone. By his own admission he did not see Trayvon committing any crimes that night. So it makes no sense to be sure that Trayvon was a criminal and not someone who belonged there.

If GZ wanted a safe community he should have called out from the car and said that he was with the Neighborhood Watch and could he help him....or even asked if he was a resident. That would have defused the situation. He didn't do it.

When the two met, Trayvon asked him why he was following him but he didn't answer, he asked him why he was there. Again, he could have defused the situation by telling him he was with the Neighborhood Watch and was checking to see if he belonged in the Neighborhood. Again he missed the opportunity and IMO it was because he already KNEW in his mind that this young black man was a criminal and that therefore there was no point at all in having a civil conversation.

So it's not just the profiling, it's the behavior that followed where his actions all speak to his certainty that this black teenager was a criminal that makes it a hate crime in my book. IMO opinion he attempted to physically detain Trayvon for LE and that's what started the scuffle. I believe Trayvon was standing HIS ground and when Zimmerman wasn't prevailing in the fight he simply decided to shoot the 'criminal.' I don't think he was in fear for his life, I think he was angry.

 

[stmarysmead]

Lots of DA's are driven by personal agendas. The elected DA of Durham NC was just removed for her actions in cases many of which were Black defendants. When a Black judge called her on her lies, misstatements, and evdence withholding, she started to malign HIM in public. Oh, she is Black too. So DAs bring their biases along to work.

If Corey doesn't have something more than this, she may find herself in a real PERSONAL predicament.

Tracy Cline article...the DA of Durham County:

too.http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/03/04/1902895/for-cline-recent-attack-is-in.html

Washington, from the start, proclaimed his innocence and demanded DNA tests. During court hearings and again at Washington's trial, Cline blamed more than three years of delays in testing on a backlog at the State Bureau of Investigation's lab. At the trial, called by Washington's attorney as a witness, Cline said: "We both know how the SBI tests things. Sometimes it takes months, sometimes it takes years."

But records and testimony from crime lab agents were clear that wasn't the reason for the delay. The evidence hadn't been sent to Raleigh for testing. Cline was responsible.

When the testing was finally done, it showed that fingerprints, hairs and DNA from the crime scene did not match with samples taken from Washington.

In 2008, the appeals court threw out Washington's conviction because he did not get a speedy trial. It cited Cline for "repeated neglect" and said Cline's "assertion" in her testimony was "unsupported by the evidence of record."

 

[annalia]

TM made mistakes too. He was so close to home but did not go in. He was wandering about even if as a game to lose GZ...but unfortunately that added to the conclusion. GZ wanted to keep track of this stranger. Is there evidence that he went back and got the gun AFTER seeing TM? If not, the gun preceded him even KNOWING Tm was in the neighborhood...so carrying the gun had ZIP to do with TM or his RACE.

These are the things a diverse jury will hear, believe me. That, and a detailing of every crime. The truth as statistics, crime reports and arrest recrds from that year show them to be. No one will be able to argue ANYTHING but the truth in regard to those crimes, no matter what "we think."

Correct, 8 burglaries in 15 months, not the major rampant black crime spree some are alleging. Stolen bikes, stolen construction items, goes on even in some better neighborhoods. No need to embellish them, they are what they are.

A reason to be concerned, of course. A reason to say that a kid walking home was another *advertiser censored******* about to get way so I need to take my gun to make sure he doesn't, not so much.

JMHO

 

[stmarysmead]

What I am reading is that George did follow Trayvon because he was a black male-but it was reasonable for him to do so based on recent activity in the neighborhood.


Do we think that Trayvon was aware that he may be followed for this reason? or perhaps only aware he may be followed for less noble reasons? What I am driving at is have we considered that a 17 yo might not get that big picture and take a man following him with a gun as threatening to his well being?

IMO we need to step back and look at the really big picture of our societal dynamics as opposed to the microcosm of the neighborhood to get a better understanding as to what may have happened that night.

JMHO of course.

Good point. Trayvon had no reason to know what crime problems existed in that neighborhood. I don't fault him running...honestly, even if he struck the first blow, I do not fault TM.

But that blow MAY have started an altercation that ended with a shot. I see a tragedy. I see that larger societal pressures may have influence TM as well. But with the crime problem, I see no basis for a Hate Crime or "profiling" charge.

This case should be about just the facts of that night and that SYG law.Do the facts fit a dismissal because of that Law, or not? Is it a bad Law?

Justice for Trayvon IMO opinion would be better served by directing our attention to that Law...which good folks of all races need to examine and debate closely. Instead of tearing each other apart by forcing this into a Race case.

 

[stmarysmead]

Correct, 8 burglaries in 15 months, not the major rampant black crime spree some are alleging. Stolen bikes, stolen construction items, goes on even in some better neighborhoods. No need to embellish them, they are what they are.

A reason to be concerned, of course. A reason to say that a kid walking home was another *advertiser censored******* about to get way so I need to take my gun to make sure he doesn't, not so much.

JMHO

There is no evidence tha GZ "took his gun out" at any time prior to the beating. NO one, not even Crump, has TM held at gunpoint. We need o cose our terminolgy with accuracy.