Finding JonBenet's Body

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by K777angel, May 4, 2004.

  1. K777angel

    K777angel New Member

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    I've got some questions surrounding the "finding" of JonBenet's body that morning. Perhaps some have been discussed and answered and I've missed them, but perhaps not.

    First - In Cyril Wecht's book "Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey" he states that it wasn't just John Ramsey and Fleet White who went on that infamous search of the basement at 1:00pm that day - but that John Fernie accompanied them as well. Is this just a mistake? Did he or didn't he? ST does not mention Fernie in his account.

    Secondly - And this one I think is very important. WHY did John Ramsey choose to PICK UP his obviously stiff and dead daughter's body and bring her upstairs? I do not think that this is the "natural" response. She was not only obviously dead - but had an "odor of decay" about her as well.
    The average person in this country KNOWS that you do NOT disturb a dead body and that it is in your best interest not to do so. (to preserve evidence)
    I think it is very, very ODD that John Ramsey immediately picked her up to bring her upstairs - rather than calling Det. Arndt down there to the scene.
    Not only that, but John KNEW Patsy was upstairs and rather than putting some protective SPACE between her and JonBenet's dead body - he was rushing it by bringing her upstairs. And then he asks the playing-dumb question of Arndt: "Is she dead?" DUH!!!!! (When Arndt said "yes" - John Ramsey then made the interesting comment that "it must be an inside job.")

    And thirdly - Why did Fleet White run upstairs and grab a phone to dial 911 - but then HANG UP and "yell" for someone to do it??? I've never understood that. Why didn't HE do it? He had the phone right there in his hand?
    He even punched in a few numbers and then hung up the phone and yelled for someone to "call an ambulance." What was THAT all about?

    Thanks,
    ~Angel~
     
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  3. why_nutt

    why_nutt New Member

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    The average parent also knows (or ought to) that you do not pick up a live child, either, because if you have come across the scene of an injury you have not personally witnessed, you do not know if your child has a broken neck or spine. Moving your child may be the actual cause of that child becoming paralyzed. This is why EMTs come equipped with backboards and neck collars to immobilize the victim; a person's entire life may be at risk if one wrong movement causes a spinal nerve to be sliced clean through. If John received any training at all in emergency medicine (and he has inferred such through his claim that he gave her CPR), then he also was told in no uncertain terms to not move the victim he was tending to, even if (or especially if) the victim is his flesh and blood.

    If John is innocent, and his movement of JonBenet was the act of a panicked father, then in that moment he betrayed the fact that he is a selfish, selfish man who valued giving in to his impulses more than taking care of his daughter. And if John is guilty, his movement of JonBenet was the act of a selfish, selfish man who valued giving in to some unconfessed impulse more than taking care of his daughter. Either way, it is clear beyond all doubt that John moved JonBenet for one reason and one reason only; he did not give a damn about her.
     
  4. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    I think John's actions with the body after following Arndt's dictate are an indication that he found the body earlier.

    Fleet's actions are the result of him being Fleet White.
     
  5. K777angel

    K777angel New Member

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  6. Misty

    Misty Inactive

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    I give John a pass on this one. It's easy to write what one would do in a panic situation, but what you would actually do might be entirely different. I don't think this necessarily proves or disproves anything.
     
  7. nellicat

    nellicat Former Member

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    I agree with Misty. Although I think someone in the Ramsey camp did it, I don't think that this behavior leans one way or the other. If I found my child's body, even if she were obviously dead, I would scoop her up and hold her close and run her upstairs to see if anything could be done for her. An irrational act, I know, but I don't think that I'd be able to stop myself from picking up her little body and holding it to me.

    I think I"d even utter the words "Is she dead?" even if the answer was obvious. Perhaps someone might say the words I'd want to hear - perhaps my eyes really weren't seeing what they saw.

    I don't know - I think this one is a "neutral" as far as a guilty/not guilty indicator.

    Peggy
     
  8. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    BrotherMoon,

    I agree. John Ramsey knew exactly where the body was because HE had obviously moved it there several hours earlier. John admits he had been in the basement by himself that morning, even though Arndt had told everyone to stay clustered in the sunroom area. It appears John moved JonBenet from a relatively hidden area to the open area in the wine cellar so she would be easier to find.

    IMO that's why Fleet White didn't see the body at about 6:15 A.M. when he looked into the room, but the body was in plain sight at 1:05 P.M. when John looked into the room. Incidentally, John didn't know that Fleet had already looked into the wine cellar earlier that morning. Fleet insists he would have seen the body if it had been there, and that's why he's convinced a Ramsey killed JonBenet -- he knows John moved the body.

    JMO
     
  9. BrotherMoon

    BrotherMoon Former Member

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    This is the mystery in the mystery. I'm not so sure John moved the body to the small room, I rather think it fits with the mythic themes; entombment. But just what John did and when he did it is probably the thing that complicated matters beyond hope of clarity without a confession.
     
  10. K777angel

    K777angel New Member

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    To add to your point Bluecrab, Det. Arndt said that after John Ramsey came
    up from his "time" in the basement ealier in the morning - he was more visibly upset. From Steve Thomas' book:
    "Detective Arndt could not account for John Ramsey until about noon.
    She found him reading some correspondence, and she incorrectly assumed
    he had stepped out to get his mail. She was unaware that the house did
    not have an exterior mail box and that the mail, came in through a front
    door slot. Ramsey had been out of contact for over an hour. In coming
    months, we realized that the time lapse would have allowed Ramsey plenty
    of time to roam his house.
    Arndt noted a marked change in Ramsey's attitude when she saw him
    again. Whereas he had been calm and collected earlier, he now sat alone
    in the dining room, preoccupied in thought, his leg bouncing nervously."
     
  11. cookie

    cookie New Member

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    "I agree with Misty. Although I think someone in the Ramsey camp did it, I don't think that this behavior leans one way or the other. If I found my child's body, even if she were obviously dead, I would scoop her up and hold her close and run her upstairs to see if anything could be done for her. An irrational act, I know, but I don't think that I'd be able to stop myself from picking up her little body and holding it to me."

    The difference here between your scooping her up, holding her close, and running up those stairs with her is the fact that John didn't scoop her up and hold her close. He went up the stairs with her held out in front of him. He picked her up and didn't hold her close. She was stiff as a doll and held out away from him. Even asking the question, "Is she dead?" is totally rediculous to me. His denying the fact that she was dead was one thing, but him asking that question is way out there for me.
     
  12. less0305

    less0305 The face is familiar, but I can't quite remember m

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    The Fleet White thing with the 911 call and hanging up sounds a LOT like me when I found my mother-in-law dead in her apartment. When I arrived to visit her on Saturday like I always did, some of her neighbors met me and said they had not seen her in a couple of days. I asked them to watch my daughter while I went into the apartment (her paper from the day before was still outside...so I had a gut feeling it wasn't going to be good). Anyway, when I went in and found that she was lying on the floor and obviously either unconcious or dead, I ran back to the door and opened it, yelling for the neighbors to call 911...then I marched right over to my mom-in-law's phone and dialed 911 myself. So two 911 calls went into the 911 center. Why I told someone in the hall to call 911 is beyond me...I just panicked and my actions in those first few minutes weren't really thought out well.
     
  13. Ivy

    Ivy Inactive

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    I recall reading somewhere that Fernie searched the upstairs while John and Fleet searched the basement.

    I find nothing odd about Fleet starting to phone for an ambulance and then hanging up and yelling for someone else to do it instead. At the time he obviously thought JonBenet was still alive. Maybe he thought that every second counted in trying to save her life and that he could be of more assistance helping to revive her or administering first aid.

    As for John carrying JonBenet's body up the stairs, I think he was simply trying to be dramatic. Who knows...maybe he has a bit of Drama Queen in him too.
     
  14. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    What I do find interesting is that the Ramseys were very carefull not to touch the ransom note but when it came to JonBenet they were all over her.

    GUILTY!

    IMO
     
  15. Midnight_Wolf

    Midnight_Wolf New Member

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    I still don't get the odor of decay remark. My stepfather died on a Saturday night. I found his body on Monday morning. There was no odor of decay. The heat was set at 75 degrees. How could there be an odor of decay after only approximately 12 or so hours? I doubt that small room in the basement was overly warm in December. Something smells in this case, but it wasn't JonBenet.
     
  16. Britt

    Britt New Member

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    Yes, I think so, Ivy. John Ramsey, Drama Queen... lol. IMO this is something we've learned about this guy over the years. He's a con artist. IMCPO, of course. :)

    Excellent observation, Toltec. While they were at it, they should've also brought the duct tape up from the basement. Maybe then they could've explained Patsy's fibers on the tape.
     
  17. Ivy

    Ivy Inactive

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    I find it interesting too, especially in light of the fact that all the fingerprints found on the note that didn't belong to police officers, belonged to Patsy Ramsey.

    imo
     
  18. Brefie

    Brefie New Member

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    Thank goodness! I thought I was alone in this thought. I haven't even so much as read an article on human decomposition, but I still always thought, "Surely 'they' don't smell THAT quickly??"
     
  19. K777angel

    K777angel New Member

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    Interesting Midnight_Wolf. I too have wondered how her body can smell of decompostion that quickly. I am not certain how long it takes before a body begins to have the pugnent odor of decay.

    One thing that has always puzzled me is the significance of the dried mucous seen on one of her nostrils - and I believe the autopsy describes "tan colored" mucous on the sleeve of her shirt as well. As if she wiped her nose on it. But why "tan" colored? Was there blood in it? Or was it something more disgusting that would cause an "odor"? I read a rumour a few years ago claiming something horrible along these lines.
    I pray it is not true.
     
  20. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    It doesn't seem likely that JonBenet would have a strong odor of decay after just 12 hours. The body of a dead human MIGHT start broadcasting the smell of rotting meat after about 12 hours, but it wouldn't be a strong odor until around 24 hours.

    The smell that Arndt noted might not have been from the putrefaction of JonBenet's body. Perhaps it was from feces. Even though the autopsy report doesn't mention feces on the body, it's possible that feces had been mostly, but not totally, cleaned up from JonBenet's body by the people who staged the crime, which included wiping her down and changing her underwear (size 12's).

    JonBenet's jeans were found lying in the middle of her bathroom floor with feces on them. Two bathroom toilets (the one in JonBenet's bathroom and the one in the powder room in the basement) were unflushed after someone had defecated in them. This whole picture in regard to human feces in the house that night seems more than a coincidence to me. Is it a part of the crime? The use of feces on JonBenet would suggest extreme hate and scorn toward the victim, or a ritualistic killing of some kind.

    JMO
     
  21. Ivy

    Ivy Inactive

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    The autopsy report states that JonBenet's stomach contains a small amount (8-10 cc) of viscous green to tan colored thick mucous material...

    I wonder if the tan mucous found in her nostrils and on her sleeve was the same material found in her stomach (or perhaps the same material mixed with normal nasal mucous). If so, maybe JonBenet reflexively vomited a little right before the ligature was yanked and held tight for the very last time. Vomit might account for the "smell of decay" that Arndt described.

    imo
     

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