FL - Boy, 3, found hooked to ventilator w/no pulse rotting in bed *GRAPHIC*, Bartow, 26 May 2023 *arrests*

[watcher9]

You raise profound questions @UrsulaWrenn. I don’t have answers, but I was motivated to try to understand more about “brain death.” From what I can find, brain death is not definitely “all-dead” as you put it.

This case is tragic and it reminded me of Jahi McMath who was declared brain dead at the end of 2013 after a tonsillectomy. Her mother would not accept this, was vilified, and ultimately Jahi and her mother moved to NJ which has different standards. Her mother cared for her meticulously and Jahi officially died in June 2018. In one sense, it was a little creepy to keep Jahi alive and paint her toenails as her Mom did, but in another sense I understand her devotion and hope for a recovery. It happens.

Mother of Jahi McMath speaks after teen girl’s death

The mother of a teen at the center of a debate over brain death is speaking out.

www.kron4.com

I did some digging regarding declaring someone “brain dead” and discovered this fascinating, ethically and morally alarming history. This was written by a physician and “moral theologian,” apparently Catholic FWIW. But it discusses in depth how “brain death” came to be defined by medical professionals. It’s medically deeper in terminology than I can fully grasp, but worth reading to understand the highlights.

Brain death and true patient care

The “brain death” standard as a criterion of death is closely associated with the need for transplantable organs from heart-beating donors. Are all of these potential donors really dead, or does the documented evidence of patients destined ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And this one by a Catholic priest regarding a brain-dead child who survived for 20 years, mostly cared for at home.

A philosophical assessment of TK's autopsy report: Implications for the debate over the brain death criteria

In recent years, there has been increasing evidence that the totally brain-dead patient is able to continue to live and to maintain some integrated functions, albeit with the necessary assistance of mechanical ventilation. Several years ago, the autopsy ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So as @LucyOso pointed out, the family cared for this child very well for some time. Perhaps they hoped he would recover. But by the time they realized it was all too much, the damage had been done. Now their fear of losing their two other children has come true. I feel horrible for everyone in this family.

JMO

Here is a link to the first WS thread on Jahi McMath for those interested in how her case evolved over the years.

Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #1

A sad, sad situation. Who gets to decide when to end life support when a person is brain dead? The mother of 13-year-old Jahi McMath, who was declared brain dead Thursday, three days after undergoing surgery to remove her tonsils, said Tuesday that the family should make the call. "I don't...

www.websleuths.com

 

[c@tw0man]

Would we be able to know that info if they did/do? Or would it be kept private?

A judge can order the release of records to the opposing attorneys if they are evidence in a court action.

 

[c@tw0man]

Polk couple arrested in ‘bone chilling’ child abuse case

5:45 mark of the press conference references the parents saying they didn't want DCF to take their children, so they didn't call and claiming they had tried to get more home health care. Investigators spoke to home health care providers who said they had accepted them; we went there and wanted to see the child, they said don't wake the child up today, this is just an introduction. And the next time they went nobody answered the door. So obviously they were trying to create a facade or to say well we asked for help.....
Press conference: Couple arrested in child's death

Another breakdown in the system. An immobilized child on a ventilator does not get monitored even once by a medical professional over 6 consecutive months? So, finally they have to close the chart and write "lost to follow up". For real, and it happens everywhere. Parents can and do refuse care, end of story.
This is where an experienced case manager can be worth their weight in gold, but they have such large case loads, and they get the sickest of the sick. This case should have been reported to the county for a welfare check. These parents are ghouls. I'm sure the home care nurses had voiced some concerns to the home health agency. "La-la-la-la I can't hear you. But, I hear your paycheck". I hope they can and will testify.

 

[c@tw0man]

Maybe deciding it was time to let him finish passing at home turned really horrific really fast! Maybe they were at an apsolute loss at what to do.

That's what Hospice is for. To help us die with dignity, resting in a clean bed, with all comfort measures, including pain management,sedation if needed and respiratory support. No excuses for this sort of profound neglect.

 

[jbc]

That's what Hospice is for. To help us die with dignity, resting in a clean bed, with all comfort measures, including pain management,sedation if needed and respiratory support. No excuses for this sort of profound neglect.

yes...this!
I'm mind-boggled that this child was sent home, intubated, ventilated, essentially brain dead from drowning/hypoxia (if I understand correctly), to be cared for by parents, much less those with limited education and training, depending on a home-care nurse to provide occasional care.

There are well-staffed facilities dedicated to round-the-clock treatment of such individuals, which is what they need!
Many want to blame the parents, including the Sheriff who has a track record of seeing no nuance in anything.
But, I'm not so sure the parents should be scapegoated.

What did society expect them to do? Suddenly become respiratory technologists and chronic care experts, simply because it was their child?
No, society forced this unto them and perhaps they tried the best they could until they were overcome with a medical tsunami; then with nowhere to turn, they ran.
All understandable, and sad.

Adding Sheriff Judd to this mix is extraordinarily unhelpful.
IMO, he should go the way of Sheriff Arpaio.

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

yes...this!
I'm mind-boggled that this child was sent home, intubated, ventilated, essentially brain dead from drowning/hypoxia (if I understand correctly), to be cared for by parents, much less those with limited education and training, depending on a home-care nurse to provide occasional care.

There are well-staffed facilities dedicated to round-the-clock treatment of such individuals, which is what they need!
Many want to blame the parents, including the Sheriff who has a track record of seeing no nuance in anything.
But, I'm not so sure the parents should be scapegoated.

What did society expect them to do? Suddenly become respiratory technologists and chronic care experts, simply because it was their child?
No, society forced this unto them and perhaps they tried the best they could until they were overcome with a medical tsunami; then with nowhere to turn, they ran.
All understandable, and sad.

Adding Sheriff Judd to this mix is extraordinarily unhelpful.
IMO, he should go the way of Sheriff Arpaio.

The more I read and think about this, the more inclined I am to agree with you. The parents were in far over their heads and both they and the victim should have had far more outside support from day one.

 

[MissMalowe]

Doctors recommendation at the time of the accident (2+ years ago) was to remove him from life support. Who chose to continue the life support? Who chose to care for him at home? Who chose to no longer accept at home nurse care 3x a week?

Not society.

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

Doctors recommendation at the time of the accident (2+ years ago) was to remove him from life support. Who chose to continue the life support? Who chose to care for him at home? Who chose to no longer accept at home nurse care 3x a week?

Not society.

I agree the parents have a lot of culpability here.

However, let me ask you: if your child was pronounced brain dead, but you were given the choice to remove life support or take him home to see if he improved, which would you choose?
I cannot fault any parent for trying to keep their child alive, even when all hope is gone.
The desire to hold on to life, hold onto a loved one's life, even the desire to cling to a loved one who has passed is one of the main support structures of human society. We've invented everything from the baby bottle to embalming as ways to cheat death and cling to life -or at least memory.
When a child dies there are some options that just shouldn't be on the table -at least with our current technology. Brain transplant, cloning and sending a corpse home on a ventilator are just three of them.

 

[MissMalowe]

I agree the parents have a lot of culpability here.

However, let me ask you: if your child was pronounced brain dead, but you were given the choice to remove life support or take him home to see if he improved, which would you choose?
I cannot fault any parent for trying to keep their child alive, even when all hope is gone.
The desire to hold on to life, hold onto a loved one's life, even the desire to cling to a loved one who has passed is one of the main support structures of human society. We've invented everything from the baby bottle to embalming as ways to cheat death and cling to life -or at least memory.
When a child dies there are some options that just shouldn't be on the table -at least with our current technology. Brain transplant, cloning and sending a corpse home on a ventilator are just three of them.

Clinging onto life or clinging to hope of improvement even when you're told there's no chance of improvement, I do actually understand.

But the issue here isn't simply whether or not everyone understands or agrees with the desire to continue life support and care at home. It's the care (or in this case, the lack of care) provided after someone has made that choice. Letting go being too emotionally painful doesn't justify providing terrible care (or neglect) at any point later down the line.

The wounds and ailments this child had were described by the doctor as occurring due to months of neglect. Months. One doesn't have to be respiratory technologist or chronic care expert to know that an "ulcerous body with gaping wounds, no rectum, and a hole with intestines, spinal column and colon visible" is probably not a wound to simply continue to ignore. (And that was just one ailment I highlighted)

Unwanted, pesky mice in my garage have been treated in a more humane manner than this child was treated with in the end.

 

[iamshadow21]

Clinging onto life or clinging to hope of improvement even when you're told there's no chance of improvement, I do actually understand.

But the issue here isn't simply whether or not everyone understands or agrees with the desire to continue life support and care at home. It's the care (or in this case, the lack of care) provided after someone has made that choice. Letting go being too emotionally painful doesn't justify providing terrible care (or neglect) at any point later down the line.

The wounds and ailments this child had were described by the doctor as occurring due to months of neglect. Months. One doesn't have to be respiratory technologist or chronic care expert to know that an "ulcerous body with gaping wounds, no rectum, and a hole with intestines, spinal column and colon visible" is probably not a wound to simply continue to ignore. (And that was just one ailment I highlighted)

Unwanted, pesky mice in my garage have been treated in a more humane manner than this child was treated with in the end.

Agreed.

Also, this:

Polk couple arrested in ‘bone chilling’ child abuse case

Williams and Allen told investigators that they notice the toddler’s stomach was bloated and open sores were developing after the nurse left. However, they said they feared their children would be taken away from them, so they did not reach out for help.

That's a choice. Not ignorance or denial. It wasn't that they didn't know those things indicated there was deterioration in his condition, it's that they DID, and were more worried about the optics of it than in getting him help. So they deliberately chose to do nothing. And his body deteriorated more and more, for months, until he died.

So by their actions and inaction, they ensured he died in the most horrendous way possible, and virtually ensured they'll never get custody back of their other kids. If they'd reached out for help at the beginning, that wouldn't be the case. Bedsores are something that can happen in cases with the best of care, and caring for someone completely dependent on machines is incredibly difficult. But every day, they got up and chose to do nothing. They watched his gradual decay and decided that it was acceptable.

MOO

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

Clinging onto life or clinging to hope of improvement even when you're told there's no chance of improvement, I do actually understand.

But the issue here isn't simply whether or not everyone understands or agrees with the desire to continue life support and care at home. It's the care (or in this case, the lack of care) provided after someone has made that choice. Letting go being too emotionally painful doesn't justify providing terrible care (or neglect) at any point later down the line.

(snip)

Agreed.

(snip)

MOO

I do agree with both of you.

Hence my earlier statement "I agree the parents have a lot of culpability here."

I'm just willing to spread the blame to all the places blame is due, rather than just pile it entirely on the parents.

 

[whiterhino]

Can't bring myself to read the articles. Just wanted to state that my thoughts and prayers are with that child.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Wow they even had a home nurse but rejected her visits or didn't answer the door or "weren't home" since October! Why not continue getting help, if they cared so little for this poor child, why not just continue letting the medically trained person be responsible for his care most days at home?

Not sure I even want to fully understand this, but do we have any verified medical professionals here who could explain this further? :

No rectum?! Do they mean the rectum was prolapsed? And ONE hole (somewhere?) With the intestines, spine AND colon ALL visible?

This all sounds so incredibly horrible. That poor toddler!!

I think he had no rectum because of the advanced state of the ulcers, necrosis, and decomposition. MOO

 

[GoBuckeyes]

yes...this!
I'm mind-boggled that this child was sent home, intubated, ventilated, essentially brain dead from drowning/hypoxia (if I understand correctly), to be cared for by parents, much less those with limited education and training, depending on a home-care nurse to provide occasional care.

There are well-staffed facilities dedicated to round-the-clock treatment of such individuals, which is what they need!
Many want to blame the parents, including the Sheriff who has a track record of seeing no nuance in anything.
But, I'm not so sure the parents should be scapegoated.

What did society expect them to do? Suddenly become respiratory technologists and chronic care experts, simply because it was their child?
No, society forced this unto them and perhaps they tried the best they could until they were overcome with a medical tsunami; then with nowhere to turn, they ran.
All understandable, and sad.

Adding Sheriff Judd to this mix is extraordinarily unhelpful.
IMO, he should go the way of Sheriff Arpaio.

I couldn't disagree more, on all counts. MOO

 

[Gemmie]

Agreed.

Also, this:

Polk couple arrested in ‘bone chilling’ child abuse case

Williams and Allen told investigators that they notice the toddler’s stomach was bloated and open sores were developing after the nurse left. However, they said they feared their children would be taken away from them, so they did not reach out for help.

That's a choice. Not ignorance or denial. It wasn't that they didn't know those things indicated there was deterioration in his condition, it's that they DID, and were more worried about the optics of it than in getting him help. So they deliberately chose to do nothing. And his body deteriorated more and more, for months, until he died.

So by their actions and inaction, they ensured he died in the most horrendous way possible, and virtually ensured they'll never get custody back of their other kids. If they'd reached out for help at the beginning, that wouldn't be the case. Bedsores are something that can happen in cases with the best of care, and caring for someone completely dependent on machines is incredibly difficult. But every day, they got up and chose to do nothing. They watched his gradual decay and decided that it was acceptable.

MOO

I can't even begin the imagine the stench in that house. How could anyone live like that? Just ugh all the way around.

 

[KMouse]

Doctors recommendation at the time of the accident (2+ years ago) was to remove him from life support. Who chose to continue the life support? Who chose to care for him at home? Who chose to no longer accept at home nurse care 3x a week?

Not society.

You don't collect monthly benefits if your child dies or is in a facility so there is that angle.

 

[UrsulaWrenn]

You don't collect monthly benefits if your child dies or is in a facility so there is that angle.

Further.... Does a state receive federal funds if a child is at home?
Somehow, finances always seem to be a factor, no matter how much everyone involved in these situations claim otherwise.

 

[c@tw0man]

Doctors recommendation at the time of the accident (2+ years ago) was to remove him from life support. Who chose to continue the life support? Who chose to care for him at home? Who chose to no longer accept at home nurse care 3x a week?

Not society.

Bingo!

 

[c@tw0man]

I can't even begin the imagine the stench in that house. How could anyone live like that? Just ugh all the way around.

My thoughts, exactly. They chose to protect themselves, and shut the door on that baby. Did they really think they could "disappear" that kid and nobody would notice??

 

[c@tw0man]

And why wasn't the fact that the nurse visits were being rejected not reported? Someone had to be looking out for this baby!

It's not a requirement for a home health agency to report to DCF if the family has been trained to care for the child, and decides to terminate the nursing care. Sad fact.