FL - Michelle Mishcon, 53, & John Stevens, 59, murdered, Tequesta, 15 Aug 2016 - #1

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slanda

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But it was posted in 2 news articles:

The Gainesville Sun

http://www.gainesville.com/news/201...have-ingested-chemical-martin-co-sheriff-says

People Magazine

http://www.people.com/article/fsu-s...ce-drank-chemicals-he-found-in-victims-garage

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Do you think MSM(newspaper & magazines) is giving out false information? Again, I don't have a clue, I'm waiting for the toxicology report to confirm this.

jmo ��

It sounds like a misquote. The reporter in the second video says "AH's family and doctors believe he consumed the caustic substance from the garage AFTER the attacks."

Direct quote from CBS12: "The Sheriff's Office told CBS12 Monday that Harrouff may have ingested a chemical found in the garage at some point during the attack. It's unknown whether Harrouff did it to harm himself or because he was thirsty."

http://cbs12.com/news/local/calls-show-growing-urgency-in-face-biting-attack



http://cbs12.com/news/local/father-...ns-organs-are-failing-from-chemical-poisoning
 

SpanishInquisition

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He dropped his clothes before he got anywhere near the scene. His shorts were found a mile away. So it would appear he was cutting himself and taking off his clothes before he even got to the scene of the murder.

"CBS12 news photojournalist Dana Szpunar found a pair of shorts about one mile west on SE Island way from the crime scene and handed the evidence over to detectives."

http://cbs12.com/news/local/accused...ve-ingested-chemicals-found-in-victims-garage

Yes, that's what I said, which I'm saying he could have ingested the stomach toxin before he arrived at the house, rather than afterward. It's not exactly clear how he would have ingested it if he took at their garage, especially if the garage was occupied when he arrived there.
 

Curious Me

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Father claims his son was making suicidal threats that day. That contradicts what his mother was saying on 911, but would actually explain why she called police after he left the restaurant. Could also explain why he would ingest something from the garage-he could have been both suicidal and homicidal (apparently quite a few suicidal people are also homicidal).

"Harrouff told CBS 12 off camera, “Austin was not mentally well that day. He was making suicidal threats,” before dinner and they “were very concerned.”"
http://cbs12.com/news/local/father-...ns-organs-are-failing-from-chemical-poisoning

This would explain it. You know how I questioned why Mom, family, and fraternity brothers and then police got involved in urgently searching for AH. I want to believe it's true he threatened to harm himself, but it does contradict what Mom told police at first.

What I don't understand is how calmly AH left the restaurant and that no one chased after him right then if he was saying he was suicidal. He supposedly said those strange things to his father, and yet no one stopped him from leaving the restaurant. If only they had.

AH is still in very critical condition from the sound of it.

Harrouff’s father says his son showed him his pocket knife the day of the attack, and said odd things like “I will protect you dad” and “they’re trying to kill you.”

This contradicts Harrouff’s mother statement to Jupiter Police when she said she “did not believe him to be a danger to others or himself,” in a police report to let law enforcement know they could not find Austin after he walked out of dinner.

It also conflicts with what Austin’s friends reportedly told the Marin County Sheriff.

“Nobody saw anything that made them think they should hold on to him and call fire rescue or call police. At the Duffy’s, he was processing information and acting appropriately. The compelling question is why in this world did we see this homicidal rage evidence itself?”

http://cbs12.com/news/local/father-...ns-organs-are-failing-from-chemical-poisoning
 

SpanishInquisition

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It sounds like a misquote. The reporter in the second video says "AH's family and doctors believe he consumed the caustic substance from the garage AFTER the attacks."

Direct quote from CBS12: "The Sheriff's Office told CBS12 Monday that Harrouff may have ingested a chemical found in the garage at some point during the attack. It's unknown whether Harrouff did it to harm himself or because he was thirsty."

http://cbs12.com/news/local/calls-show-growing-urgency-in-face-biting-attack



http://cbs12.com/news/local/father-...ns-organs-are-failing-from-chemical-poisoning

The police arrived during the attacks (why they didn't shoot him since they weren't sure if the husband was still alive), so LE would have seen him drink it, if that was the case unless it was something he was covertly carrying.
 

kbpirate

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"Austin Harrouff, the 19-year-old charged with murdering two people in Martin County, had been acting strangely for about a week and “would say things like he had super powers,” his mother told Jupiter police the night of the incident."

Source: http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/...aimed-to/nsHHC

Could someone please explain to me how this kid was talking about having Super Power for a week yet the mom did nothing about it?!

I apologize if this has been discussed, I'm a bit behind. What could she do? Police won't do anything until he commits a crime they can prove. He's a legal adult, she can't make him go to the doctor or psychologist. This is how the mental health system is failing so many people! Look at all the threads where it was obvious the defendant is guilty and also mentally ill. Once they are adults, their parents lose all power until they do something really, really crazy, like eating people's faces, kidnapping, raping and killing young women or wiping out entire generations of families. So many drug addicts take drugs to self-medicate, to ease the pain they are feeling even if for only a while. They are mentally or physically ill and in pain and the very disease they need saving from keeps them from taking their prescribed medications as they should. They can't afford medications and therapy in some situations, so they use street drugs. In the end, we all pay. The poor random victims, their loved ones, the perpetrator, the perp's loved ones, the community at large, the nation in some cases hear about and feel for these people enjoying a nice night, minding their own business who paid the most.
 

SpanishInquisition

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This would explain it. You know how I questioned why Mom, family, and fraternity brothers and then police got involved in urgently searching for AH. I want to believe it's true he threatened to harm himself, but it does contradict what Mom told police at first.

What I don't understand is how calmly AH left the restaurant and that no one chased after him right then if he was saying he was suicidal. He supposedly said those strange things to his father, and yet no one stopped him from leaving the restaurant. If only they had.

AH is still in very critical condition from the sound of it.

If he believed he was 'immortal' and had 'superpowers' he could have made what would be characterized as a suicidal threat, if he said he was going to jump off the Empire State Building to prove to everyone how immortal he is. It wouldn't be that he had a deathwish, but instead was saying he was going to do things that would kill an ordinary person and could have though he was nutty, but then saw it differently in retrospect. If he was actually threatening self-harm because he was depressed rather than because he thought he was immortal, the family's reaction seems odd not following him, waiting hours to call LE and then expressly saying he wasn't a threat to himself when they did call.
 

Curious Me

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SpanishInquisition

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I apologize if this has been discussed, I'm a bit behind. What could she do? Police won't do anything until he commits a crime they can prove. He's a legal adult, she can't make him go to the doctor or psychologist. This is how the mental health system is failing so many people! Look at all the threads where it was obvious the defendant is guilty and also mentally ill. Once they are adults, their parents lose all power until they do something really, really crazy, like eating people's faces, kidnapping, raping and killing young women or wiping out entire generations of families. So many drug addicts take drugs to self-medicate, to ease the pain they are feeling even if for only a while. They are mentally or physically ill and in pain and the very disease they need saving from keeps them from taking their prescribed medications as they should. They can't afford medications and therapy in some situations, so they use street drugs. In the end, we all pay. The poor random victims, their loved ones, the perpetrator, the perp's loved ones, the community at large, the nation in some cases hear about and feel for these people enjoying a nice night, minding their own business who paid the most.

Actually if he - or anyone - made a specific threat of self-harm like saying they're going to commit suicide, they can be temporarily involuntarily committed with the ability for a longer-term involuntary commitment after psychiatric evaluation and approval of the courts. If he was threatening suicide and armed, his parents could have immediately called LE and had him put under 72 hour involuntary commitment by saying he was carrying a switchblade and threatened to commit suicide that day. I just don't get the impression that he was threatening suicide in saying that he wanted to take his own life, but instead was saying he would do things that would kill an ordinary person but that he was immortal, but I think that too would qualify for temporary involuntary commitment for the same reasons.
 

jjenny

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The police arrived during the attacks (why they didn't shoot him since they weren't sure if the husband was still alive), so LE would have seen him drink it, if that was the case unless it was something he was covertly carrying.

But when police arrived the victims were already dead. He could have drunk whatever he did at any point during the attack.
 

Curious Me

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I do know in one of the AH videos posted here he says, in my own words, something to the effect that having to take steroid everyday would be a reason to not want to live. I still consider that his use of steroids and trying to stop using them had something to do with his recent mental struggles and chemical imbalance changes.

Just my thoughts
 

SpanishInquisition

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But when police arrived the victims were already dead. He could have drunk whatever he did at any point during the attack.

No, JF was still alive and since then has been released from the hospital. AH fought 3 people in and around the garage and it would be rather difficult drinking something when you're fighting someone. What's not clear to me is when the husband was on-scene, but JF said he ran over there when he heard screams and saw the wife being beaten and they got into a fight until he realized was bleeding and ran away and called 911, then JF's father went over there and saw AH on top of the husband with the husband still alive. It's not exactly clear what the situation was but if the garage was empty at first and then the wife came him, he could have drank before the wife went in the garage or he could have drank after JF ran away and before the husband showed up (if the husband wasn't there to begin with). It's not impossible, just I don't see someone opening up and drinking antifreeze or whatever else when they're in the middle of a mortal fight.
 

Curious Me

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Actually if he - or anyone - made a specific threat of self-harm like saying they're going to commit suicide, they can be temporarily involuntarily committed with the ability for a longer-term involuntary commitment after psychiatric evaluation and approval of the courts. If he was threatening suicide and armed, his parents could have immediately called LE and had him put under 72 hour involuntary commitment by saying he was carrying a switchblade and threatened to commit suicide that day. I just don't get the impression that he was threatening suicide in saying that he wanted to take his own life, but instead was saying he would do things that would kill an ordinary person but that he was immortal, but I think that too would qualify for temporary involuntary commitment for the same reasons.

I understand what you're saying about superpowers, but the article does say suicidal threats. I can only imagine they didn't take him serious enough or were in denial about his mental state to let him leave the restaurant.

"Harrouff told CBS 12 off camera, “Austin was not mentally well that day. He was making suicidal threats,” before dinner and they “were very concerned.”"
http://cbs12.com/news/local/father-o...ical-poisoning
 

GeeEm

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It sounds like a misquote. The reporter in the second video says "AH's family and doctors believe he consumed the caustic substance from the garage AFTER the attacks."

Direct quote from CBS12: "The Sheriff's Office told CBS12 Monday that Harrouff may have ingested a chemical found in the garage at some point during the attack. It's unknown whether Harrouff did it to harm himself or because he was thirsty."

http://cbs12.com/news/local/calls-show-growing-urgency-in-face-biting-attack



http://cbs12.com/news/local/father-...ns-organs-are-failing-from-chemical-poisoning

Hi slanda

Thanks! That is exactly what I was trying to say!!!

I'm aware of the odd behavior that happened before the actual incident, taking off his clothes, arguing, super powers, etc. I've been following this case from the beginning.

My question/thoughts/guess is IF he did drink caustic poisons was it before/during/after the attacks. And does the poison cause someone to act cannibalized instantly?

Thanks ~

jmo 🐮
 

slanda

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Hi slanda

Thanks! That is exactly what I was trying to say!!!

I'm aware of the odd behavior that happened before the actual incident, taking off his clothes, arguing, super powers, etc. I've been following this case from the beginning.

My question/thoughts/guess is IF he did drink caustic poisons was it before/during/after the attacks. And does the poison cause someone to act cannibalized instantly?

Thanks ~

jmo ��

I would say definitely no. I think he was already in a frenzy which is why he drank the caustic substance, not he went into a frenzy because he drank something poisonous.
 

SpanishInquisition

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I understand what you're saying about superpowers, but the article does say suicidal threats. I can only imagine they didn't take him serious enough or were in denial about his mental state to let him leave the restaurant.

If I said I'm Superman and tomorrow I'm going to jump off the Empire State Building and fly, that could be classified as a suicidal threat but at the same time could have been more easily blown off than if someone said they were going to slit their wrists tomorrow instead. To me Superman suicidal remarks seem more consistent with the other things he had said, like protecting his father and being immortal and would be consistent with how his family responded, like how the mom said he told her that he was immortal but that she didn't think he was threat to himself or others when she called LE, which I don't think she would have said that if he was saying slit-my-wrists type remarks instead of I'm-a-superhero remarks.
 

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This all confuses me. In my mind "caustic" chemicals would incapacitate him fairly quickly. I read in several accounts that police found him on top of male victim doing stuff I'd rather forget. So if he was on top of victim still, apparently still functioning, how is it he already ingested the chemicals? Did he break free from LE and tossed back antifreeze or whatever while they were trying to apprehend him?

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ShayHay!

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From those articles, the police are using the word drank; the hospital is using the word ingested:

in·gest
inˈjest/
verb
[COLOR=#878787 !important]past tense: ingested; past participle: ingested


  • take (food, drink, or another substance) into the body by swallowing or absorbing it.


    So I'm wondering if he inhaled these caustic substances rather than drank them...what we used to call "huffing" to get the high.

    I also note that the accounts I've seen state that the couple have been known to sit outside in the garage, invite people to join them, etc. However, I don't recall any of the articles stating that it is known that the couple were outside before this particular incident.

    I have to wonder if this guy saw the garage open, scrounged around for something to sniff to get high, and the victims saw him out there and confronted him, whereupon he attacked them? That's the only scenario I can come up with that makes any sense based on the facts as I understand them at this point.

  • P.S. I think this person is awfully cocky about the cops not finding any drugs in his system. I think perhaps he's under the notion that any trace of these caustic substances used for the purposes of getting high can't be traced as such. (Or whatever he's been taking will be out of his system...such as steroids used in the past). Again, just trying to make sense out of all this.




 

slanda

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No, JF was still alive and since then has been released from the hospital. AH fought 3 people in and around the garage and it would be rather difficult drinking something when you're fighting someone. What's not clear to me is when the husband was on-scene, but JF said he ran over there when he heard screams and saw the wife being beaten and they got into a fight until he realized was bleeding and ran away and called 911, then JF's father went over there and saw AH on top of the husband with the husband still alive. It's not exactly clear what the situation was but if the garage was empty at first and then the wife came him, he could have drank before the wife went in the garage or he could have drank after JF ran away and before the husband showed up (if the husband wasn't there to begin with). It's not impossible, just I don't see someone opening up and drinking antifreeze or whatever else when they're in the middle of a mortal fight.

I would say he drank it after or maybe during the attacks as he wounded the victims. He beat the wife to death and beat/stabbed/chewed on the husband. If he was acting how it has been described, it would not be out of the realm of possibilities he beat the wife, maybe beat the husband, and as they were laying there he drank God only knows what, and then began beating, stabbing, biting again... AH was in a (IMO) psychotic frenzy. At this point, I think, why wouldn't he (drink something caustic)? I could see him standing in the middle of the garage after/during a mortal fight opening a bottle of something and swigging it for his own entertainment; or for his own demise, ... Who knows? But, it doesn't surprise me.

I'm afraid we are trying to make sense out of something non-sensical. I don't believe there was one rational thought in his head that night and nothing he is accused of doing shocks me, because I'm looking at this situation from a standpoint that it is irrational-- It doesn't make sense because nothing he did makes sense. He brutally beat and murdered perfect strangers and cannibalized one of them. There is nothing normal about that.
 

CARIIS

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I would say definitely no. I think he was already in a frenzy which is why he drank the caustic substance, not he went into a frenzy because he drank something poisonous.

just mo

and, it is like Batman Massacre, I have super powers and can drink drano OR ready to die

sudden realization of what he just did - suicide?


man that music on the boat video was dark guys, day of boating, which is hypothetically suppossed to be fun, humm what background music do I want - nah not" Walkin On Sunshine" (thats funny!) its a homocide song (never heard of that before- just came into my head! -- guy actually had a pretty voice!

For some reason, (it feels like we really dont have an academic picture), I would expect to see detoriating performance the last month or so

On his you tube channel he was frantic in liking stuff the final two weeks subscribing whatever....

Ugh I did realize the husband was allive when his face was being eaten?

do know in one of the AH videos posted here he says, in my own words, something to the effect that having to take steroid everyday would be a reason to not want to live. I still consider that his use of steroids and trying to stop using them had something to do with his recent mental struggles and chemical imbalance changes.

Just my thoughts

Hi curious

agree - i think his mental issues lead to the numbing obession with his his body, I mean folks with super powers have super bodies

still want to hear from the frat guys -- anyone?

Actually if he - or anyone - made a specific threat of self-harm like saying they're going to commit suicide, they can be temporarily involuntarily committed with the ability for a longer-term involuntary commitment after psychiatric evaluation and approval of the courts. If he was threatening suicide and armed, his parents could have immediately called LE and had him put under 72 hour involuntary commitment by saying he was carrying a switchblade and threatened to commit suicide that day. I just don't get the impression that he was threatening suicide in saying that he wanted to take his own life, but instead was saying he would do things that would kill an ordinary person but that he was immortal, but I think that too would qualify for temporary involuntary commitment for the same reasons.

I kinda think we will find out she has gone that route before - it really is pretty useless - those that meet criteria - acute chronic- really need long term in pt. Often it escalates everything - they drug em to death and through them out , when the seation wears off (since it was never really treated) slowly unwinds again.

kinda like a band aid on a broken arm when ya really need a cast

If he believed he was 'immortal' and had 'superpowers' he could have made what would be characterized as a suicidal threat, if he said he was going to jump off the Empire State Building to prove to everyone how immortal he is. It wouldn't be that he had a deathwish, but instead was saying he was going to do things that would kill an ordinary person and could have though he was nutty, but then saw it differently in retrospect. If he was actually threatening self-harm because he was depressed rather than because he thought he was immortal, the family's reaction seems odd not following him, waiting hours to call LE and then expressly saying he wasn't a threat to himself when they did call.

I am getting the sense that mom was just exhausted and over it. I would think (videos) he had been pecullioar for many years, and she almost got desentiszed , yeh Austin you got superpowers, eat your hamburger..

Sounds like read it backwards (makes some sense, now dad had medical training) that dad had more insight into his sons problems that mom??

And you know what else just hit me- did not pay attn to him taking off clothes- folks with bath salt seem to do that -

Had he had any sort of traumatic brain injury? I'm so at a loss of words with this case. It's so random, so brutal. He needs to pay for what he has done, but this is one case where I will be actively watching to see what went wrong with him and when.

It really is unreal, and so confusing and chronology in this matters imo what happened and when to help us get to why

Well, I'm anything but young, and taking the heat and slightly sloping terrain where I've walked lately, it takes me a good 60 to75 mins to walk 2.9 miles.

That is good glf! It sounds soooooo long to me!! FL- we are a driving state!

"Nothing unusual earlier that day" that is a relative statement no? nothing extremely unusual about his behavior,

its kinda like compared to what - all of us agree the videos are off - so the notion of AUstin just being Austin...................

 

slanda

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This all confuses me. In my mind "caustic" chemicals would incapacitate him fairly quickly. I read in several accounts that police found him on top of male victim doing stuff I'd rather forget. So if he was on top of victim still, apparently still functioning, how is it he already ingested the chemicals? Did he break free from LE and tossed back antifreeze or whatever while they were trying to apprehend him?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I found this quote in reference to Antifreeze poisoning as an example of an ingested caustic substance. It takes quite some time to shut down the organs and it's a very unpleasant death. (Ethylene glycol poisoning) ... I'm not saying he actually drank antifreeze, but, ingestion of something poisonous usually isn't an instantaneous demise.

"Best Answer: Antifreeze contains ethylene glycol which is severely nephrotoxic, meaning it damages the kidneys.

Poisoning will cause nausea and vomiting within 12 hours of ingestion. Following this, accunulation of toxic metabolites in the blood can cause muscle spasms and heart arrhythmias within 12-36 hours of ingestion.

Finally, at around 24-72 hours of ingestion, there can be tubular necrosis, meaning the nephrons in your kidneys start to die. This is a very serious condition, and can often be fatal. It can sometimes be reversible with urgent medical care and haemodyalisis etc. Either way, antifreeze ingestion is VERY serious!
Source(s):
I'm a pharmacologist"
 
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