FL - Sara Morales, 35, shot dead by motorcyclist she hit with car, Orange City, 20 Nov 2021

[GatorFL]

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Here is an interesting article, and a quote from it, on marijuana induced paranoia: "“Paranoid” in this context means the unfounded or excessive fear that other people are trying to harm us."

Cannabis really can trigger paranoia

JMO

 

[neesaki]

I don't know if I said she was paranoid in my earlier posts. If I did I was referring to it in a general sense. When I saw the THC in her system I remembered that paranoia is a side effect from marijuana use. So, now that we definitely know she was a marijuana user, I am supposing that she suffered from some kind of marijuana caused paranoia.

Study Sheds Light on Marijuana and Paranoia

If she had marijuana in her system, could this have been part of why she fled the scene… DUI ? Marijuana Also could have contributed to her road rage. IMO

 

[GatorFL]

If she had marijuana in her system, could this have been part of why she fled the scene… DUI ?

Perhaps. When I got the AR I looked into the DUI laws here in FL. You can be cited for DUI for driving while high, and there is no threshold on how much or little THC is in your system for you to be considered DUI. Alcohol has a threshold.

Not trying to shame this poor dead lady but man, she really made a lot of bad decisions.

 

[cvaldez1975]

this may be my state but you have to reek of it or be super high to get a DUI for mj due to the fact that it stays in the system for a month.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I don't know if I said she was paranoid in my earlier posts. If I did I was referring to it in a general sense. When I saw the THC in her system I remembered that paranoia is a side effect from marijuana use. So, now that we definitely know she was a marijuana user, I am supposing that she suffered from some kind of marijuana caused paranoia.

Study Sheds Light on Marijuana and Paranoia

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

Here is an interesting article, and a quote from it, on marijuana induced paranoia: "“Paranoid” in this context means the unfounded or excessive fear that other people are trying to harm us."

Cannabis really can trigger paranoia

JMO

You're interpreting that in a way that's inaccurate though. Clinical paranoia means something very specific.

Paranoia: "I believe that random stranger on the street wants me dead for no reason whatsoever. I've never seen him before, but I know he has a tracker on my car, he bugs my phone, and he watches me on my webcam just because he can."

Not paranoia: "I'm afraid the guy I just got into a screaming match with over a parking space may grab a gun from his car and shoot me."

It may be nuanced to most people which is why I'm speaking up about it. This woman was not paranoid. What she was afraid was a possible reality.

Just fyi, this is what I do for a living which is why I'm speaking up.

 

[GatorFL]

You're interpreting that in a way that's inaccurate though. Clinical paranoia means something very specific.

Paranoia: "I believe that random stranger on the street wants me dead for no reason whatsoever. I've never seen him before, but I know he has a tracker on my car, he bugs my phone, and he watches me on my webcam just because he can."

Not paranoia: "I'm afraid the guy I just got into a screaming match with over a parking space may grab a gun from his car and shoot me."

It may be nuanced to most people which is why I'm speaking up about it. This woman was not paranoid. What she was afraid was a possible reality.

Just fyi, this is what I do for a living which is why I'm speaking up.

Well it seems like we're getting into semantics between clinical paranoia and marijuana induced paranoia. I'm going with my anecdotal viewpoint that she made a litany of bad decisions for a reason, perhaps the weed made her do it.

 

[Razz]

Well it seems like we're getting into semantics between clinical paranoia and marijuana induced paranoia. I'm going with my anecdotal viewpoint that she made a litany of bad decisions for a reason, perhaps the weed made her do it.

It's too bad they didn't test this motorcycle dude for drugs. What was he on that caused him to become a raging maniac? Chasing a woman down and then shooting her to death? Poor decisions? I'd say he's the king of poor decisions.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Well it seems like we're getting into semantics between clinical paranoia and marijuana induced paranoia. I'm going with my anecdotal viewpoint that she made a litany of bad decisions for a reason, perhaps the weed made her do it.

That's fine and I don't entirely disagree that marijuana may have played a role. I'm just saying that clinical paranoia is what marijuana-induced paranoia is. It's a clinical diagnosis, meaning that people with marijuana-induced paranoia have a form of substance-induced psychosis which is a medical diagnosis. The colloquial use of that term is what many refer to (i.e. "my friend is paranoid her boss will fire her"), but in that case it wouldn't be due to marijuana. The type of paranoia marijuana causes is a medical/psychiatric condition.

Maybe this will help explain it better.

How Cannabis Causes Paranoia: Using the Intravenous Administration of ∆ 9 -Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) to Identify Key Cognitive Mechanisms Leading to Paranoia

"Paranoia—unfounded fears that others intend harm to the individual — is a central experience of psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia."

Unfounded is the key word there. In order for there to be clinically relevant paranoia (which is what THC causes), the fear of harm is not rooted in reality. If it is rooted in reality, then it's just an overreaction. But real paranoia is delusional.

Like I said, I don't entirely disagree that marijuana may have played a role (marijuana is bad on all kinds of levels).

 

[Charlot123]

I am going to order the newest set of books on substance abuse specifically, but from what I have read very recently, one cannot even say “marijuana” anymore. The THC content varies from 10% to 100%, and the delivery method might be different. I am for marijuana being legal, but sadly, the dispensaries sometimes recommend products with higher THC. Bottom line, we don’t know what product Ms. Morales was using. If high-content THC, then surely, it may cause paranoia and even psychosis, in anyone.

P.S. we just have to remember that “grass” in the times of “make love, not war” contained 5-10% of THC, and today’s “weed” is a very different product.

 

[GatorFL]

I am going to order the newest set of books on substance abuse specifically, but from what I have read very recently, one cannot even say “marijuana” anymore. The THC content varies from 10% to 100%, and the delivery method might be different. I am for marijuana being legal, but sadly, the dispensaries sometimes recommend products with higher THC. Bottom line, we don’t know what product Ms. Morales was using. If high-content THC, then surely, it may cause paranoia and even psychosis, in anyone.

P.S. we just have to remember that “grass” in the times of “make love, not war” contained 5-10% of THC, and today’s “weed” is a very different product.

I'm not a clinician. Anecdotally, I've seen that the higher people are, the more psychosis they seem to exhibit. But, it only does this to some people, not all. There are levels of THC listed in the AR, and that is probably an indication of how high she was, but I don't know to interpret what the levels mean, other than she had THC in her system. Perhaps @BeginnerSleuther has any interpretation of how much she had and how high she was? Also, is it true the "higher" as person is the more marijuana-induced psychosis they exhibit?

 

[Marg from Oz]

I just hope that lady died from the first bullet. Reading the autopsy shows what one bullet can do. The four that hit her body did devastating damage to her body. She would have been in agony if she was conscious. I can't justify using 5 bullets all hitting the victim. I don't know how that man can sleep at night if he read the autopsy..MOO

 

[Charlot123]

@BeginnerSleuther has any interpretation of how much she had and how high she was? Also, is it true the "higher" as person is the more marijuana-induced psychosis they exhibit?

There have been several unbelievably interesting studies on Marijuana and its components done recently, with quite unexpected results. Of course, many were performed in adolescents, a group of huge concern when it comes to THC.
Everything might play a role in the outcome, the potency, the length of use, but also, individual predisposition. Perhaps pre-existing mental illness, for which, ironically, marijuana might be used to self-medicate, plays a role. One can expect high-percent THC formulations and the length of use to be important factors, but the response is still very individual. A study linking synthetic marijuana to psychosis was done about 10 years ago, and I think it might have been one of the first ones.

However, we can not use the results of any study to interpret what happened in that case, as there are too many factors into play, and probably, on both sides. It still seems to be the "road rage", and "road vigilantes", and "stand your ground" to me, and plus, wasn't she pregnant? Pregnancy itself is a complex factor here, as well as availability of prenatal care. I am just thinking of how unsafe their neighborhood was on that day.

 

[Novice_slueth999]

There have been several unbelievably interesting studies on Marijuana and its components done recently, with quite unexpected results. Of course, many were performed in adolescents, a group of huge concern when it comes to THC.
Everything might play a role in the outcome, the potency, the length of use, but also, individual predisposition. Perhaps pre-existing mental illness, for which, ironically, marijuana might be used to self-medicate, plays a role. One can expect high-percent THC formulations and the length of use to be important factors, but the response is still very individual. A study linking synthetic marijuana to psychosis was done about 10 years ago, and I think it might have been one of the first ones.

However, we can not use the results of any study to interpret what happened in that case, as there are too many factors into play, and probably, on both sides. It still seems to be the "road rage", and "road vigilantes", and "stand your ground" to me, and plus, wasn't she pregnant? Pregnancy itself is a complex factor here, as well as availability of prenatal care. I am just thinking of how unsafe their neighborhood was on that day.

did no one actually read this autopsy report? she was not pregnant! it says right in the report that she had a blighted ovum. that is basically a false pregnancy. there was never a baby. it says in the report there was no sign of any fetus or amniotic sac. so why do people keep calling her a pregnant woman?

 

[worm]

I’ve got to catch up on this but from what little I’ve read, the man did the right thing by calling help at the start but being armed, chasing this lady down, and perhaps most importantly, having any sort of confrontation. If he wants to follow and show LE where she is that’s one thing. The lady, high or not, made some poor choices but since she was at home and had 3 people following so she was armed. I don’t think any pot induced anything caused this.

 

[Razz]

did no one actually read this autopsy report? she was not pregnant! it says right in the report that she had a blighted ovum. that is basically a false pregnancy. there was never a baby. it says in the report there was no sign of any fetus or amniotic sac. so why do people keep calli her a pregnant woman?

Could be why they couldn't charge biker dude with a 2nd homicide.
Doesn't sound like her mother knew that she was not pregnant..

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Could be why they couldn't charge biker dude with a 2nd homicide.
Doesn't sound like her mother knew that she was not pregnant..

I think people are misunderstanding this.

A blighted ovum is a type of very early miscarriage. It's so early that some women don't even know they were pregnant, whereas others have just found out. What it means is the embryo didn't completely form or more common is that it formed but was unable to grow due to some type of pathology, usually genetic abnormality. So the body believes it's pregnant, prepares for the pregnancy, (this is how women get a positive pregnancy test), and actually the embryo is absorbed by the body leaving the uterus empty. It usually happens in the first 8 weeks of pregnancy. Usually, when the woman goes to get that first ultrasound, that's when they find the empty gestational sac (not to be confused with the amniotic sac, which is different) and that's how they know that it was a blighted ovum. If the embryo or remnants of the embryo isn't re-absorbed completely by the body, the woman may expel it (as if it's part of her menstrual cycle) or she may need a surgical procedure called a D&C to remove the remnants. Some women who find out they have a blighted ovum are sent home to wait for the full miscarriage.

In many cases, a woman may not even know she's had a miscarriage. If she didn't take a pregnancy test and had no reason to believe she was pregnant, she may not know.

In this case, it sounds like she may have known through a pregnancy test, but didn't know it wasn't a viable pregnancy. Or maybe she had just found out and she was upset about it that day.

 

[GatorFL]

Could be why they couldn't charge biker dude with a 2nd homicide.
Doesn't sound like her mother knew that she was not pregnant..

He wasn't charged with anything. He was found to be within his right to use justifiable force.

 

[GatorFL]

I’ve got to catch up on this but from what little I’ve read, the man did the right thing by calling help at the start but being armed, chasing this lady down, and perhaps most importantly, having any sort of confrontation. If he wants to follow and show LE where she is that’s one thing. The lady, high or not, made some poor choices but since she was at home and had 3 people following so she was armed. I don’t think any pot induced anything caused this.

I think he was doing all of that, i.e. following her to point out to the authorities where she lived. Sadly she changed the dynamics drastically when she exited her house, armed with a gun, and charged the motorcyclist, who was standing in the street. He had reasonable fear for his life and so he took hers. This was 100% within the guidelines of justifiable force here in Florida.

ETA he has both criminal and civil immunity.

 

[worm]

Would the law have been on her side if she had just opened fire claiming the same fear that they were going to kill her as the shooter in this case claimed? And they would have found those weapons on the people who were shot down.