GUILTY FL - Seath Jackson, 1, brutally murdered, Summerfield, 17 April 2011

[Nova]

I doubt this tragedy has as much, if anything, to do with gang culture, and more to do with the fact that parents are not educating their teens wrt the "fishbowl effect" of social networking. Sadly, the result can be deadly, whether the suicides Megan Meier and Phoebe Prince, or homicide of Seath Jackson.

I thought the OP meant the imitation of "gangsta" style by suburban kids more than actual gang activity. It seems you are right that this wasn't about a formal gang, just a temporary one that formed around this grudge.

You are so right about educating teens. Does "fishbowl effect" refer to the way water bounces back and forth when it is disturbed in a bowl? Or does it just mean that everything one posts is visible to so many people? (The latter is what it meant when I was a kid 50 years ago.) Seems like both are apt in this case.

And while we're educating our kids, let's teach them how to spell.

 

[Nova]

It's not so much that they actually belong to the subculture, as they seem to want to emulate the gangsta subculture.

Great minds. Simultaneous posts.

(ETA I agree about the gangsta subculture. The world and this country are just too crowded for all the chest thumping. We all need to learn cooperation skills or arm ourselves and shoot it out.)

 

[mysteriew]

What is it about social networking sites that gives posters so much bravado? I mean it isn't really anonymous, since most people use their real names on Facebook. So it must just be the fact that it is faceless that provokes people to escalate the wars of words.

Yeah it is probably more a social networking thing than a gangsta thing. Trash talk is big, looking and acting tough. And when someone trash talks back it just seems to keep escalating. Unfortunately it is spreading all over the web, even into the comments of news articles.

 

[Softail]

I still say ..."Where the heck are the parents?" Really... Something is wrong, when it get to this point. This is so far beyond bullying.... it's sick. How were these kids raised that they think nothing of not only killing... but burning the body?

 

[Nova]

Yeah it is probably more a social networking thing than a gangsta thing. Trash talk is big, looking and acting tough. And when someone trash talks back it just seems to keep escalating. Unfortunately it is spreading all over the web, even into the comments of news articles.

I don't think it's either/or, but part of the same problem of general incivility.

Before I sound totally like an old fart, I should point out that the United States was born in violence and has always had violent undercurrents and frictions between ethnic groups and newcomers v. natives, etc. And etiquette rather went out of style with my baby-boomer generation because it was associated with obedience to authority, the latter having led to disaster at home (Watergate) and abroad (Vietnam).

But while I don't care how we hold our pinkies when we drink tea, I do think we have to find a way to collaborate with one another. And we need to celebrate team spirit rather than individual domination.

 

[Nova]

I still say ..."Where the heck are the parents?" Really... Something is wrong, when it get to this point. This is so far beyond bullying.... it's sick. How were these kids raised that they think nothing of not only killing... but burning the body?

I don't know that this is the cause, but I'm sure they've seen bodies burnt to conceal evidence hundreds of times on TV. I don't think any one film makes anybody do anything, but I do wonder about the effect on kids who spend more hours each day in front of the TV than they spend in school or with their parents.

But I too wonder where are the parents? When I was a teenager, I simply wasn't home alone long enough to stockpile weapons (Columbine) or plan, conspire, carry out and conceal a murder as in this case. (ETA and I grew up in a so-called "broken" home with a single mother.)

 

[shadowraiths]

What is it about social networking sites that gives posters so much bravado?

It's not just social networking sites. People have been engaging in appalling online behavior since the inception of inet. Social networking sites just amplify it. In any event, Dr. John Suler claims this sort of behavior is due to the "Online Disinhibition Effect." ( link ) I tend to agree.

 

[mysteriew]

I don't know that this is the cause, but I'm sure they've seen bodies burnt to conceal evidence hundreds of times on TV. I don't think any one film makes anybody do anything, but I do wonder about the effect on kids who spend more hours each day in front of the TV than they spend in school or with their parents.

But I too wonder where are the parents? When I was a teenager, I simply wasn't home alone long enough to stockpile weapons (Columbine) or plan, conspire, carry out and conceal a murder as in this case. (ETA and I grew up in a so-called "broken" home with a single mother.)

I tend to agree. Although I would also add games to the list. When the games started putting the participants as the person behind the weapon and giving them points for the more horrific game murders, then I really became worried.

 

[Nova]

It's not just social networking sites. People have been engaging in appalling online behavior since the inception of inet. Social networking sites just amplify it. In any event, Dr. John Suler claims this sort of behavior is due to the "Online Disinhibition Effect." ( link ) I tend to agree.

That link is really helpful, thanks! I speculated that facelessness was a factor, but I didn't know what I was talking about. I hadn't thought of all the visual and non-verbal clues (frowns, grunts, sighs, etc.) that we encounter in face-to-face communication and their tendency to moderate our behaviors. Without those, it isn't surprising that conflicts escalate.

Escalating to the point of murder, however, will probably always amaze me.

 

[Nova]

I tend to agree. Although I would also add games to the list. When the games started putting the participants as the person behind the weapon and giving them points for the more horrific game murders, then I really became worried.

Yes, indeed. I should have just said "electronic media." I forget those violent games because I can't imagine playing them. The entertainment value of "killin' hos" really does elude me.

 

[LadyL]

this is so incredibly disturbing

that's a lot of sick minds collaborating

and how could they be expected to be anything but murderers when there's at least one step-parent in the mix who seems to think it's not his responsibility to attempt to stop the plan and has no problem covering up the crime

 

[shadowraiths]

Yeah it is probably more a social networking thing than a gangsta thing.

Not so much a "social networking" thing as perception. The problem with any site that involves a sort of narcissistic interaction (i.e., I'm snacking on olives, yum, yum), is that it magnifies things. Importantly, when posts are so public, it is easy to feel like *everyone* is watching. That is what I mean by the fishbowl effect. It magnifies the perceived audience. And it magnifies whatever image one might be trying to protray, or whatever image others might be trying to portray of them. So, it becomes a battle of egos. Bc, above all, social networking sites are ego-centric. Furthermore, while communication is asynchronous, reading is not. So, it makes it feel like its happening in real time, when in reality, it isn't. Hence, people can get drawn into the drama. Think of it as an argument without a timeout. Which makes it easier to react... post something nasty, back, whatever... or worst case, kill oneself or attempt to kill another. Then, there is the group contagion effect, so to speak... the them vs us. Where the anger is fed... sorta like validation but far more toxic bc the group may discuss and even reify proposed antisocial behavior (i.e., s/he deserves it, oh man, kick his/her *advertiser censored*** etc). Words that, at other times, may be no big deal, would be emotionally charged in this sort of scenario. Think of an angry mob that escalates into violence...

The above is, of course, over simplified. Because in addition to these sorts of dynamics, there is also the dynamic of predisposition, family influence, psychological makeup, personality traits, emotional development stages, etcetera. However, the overall trajectory is what I described in my masters research as the pathway to violence. Which I also proffer can be generalized to criminal behavior.

This, of course, is not to excuse these kids' behavior. I am simply suggesting elements that could play a role in the final violent outcome.

 

[mysteriew]

On the other hand, we also need to give credit to the one mother. When her son told her he saw the shooting, she did contact the police. That had to be one of the hardest things she has ever done in her life.

 

[Fairy1]

This case is deeply disturbing on so many levels. Looking over the published FB posts, I do believe the "gangsta wannabe" subculture is a factor, as is the perceived "safety" behind Internet personas. But this boy wasn't murdered online - he was deliberately lured, beaten, shot, mutilated and burned - in real life. Over a girl.

I think we have a generation of young people here who have not been taught how to deal with any kind of rejection or negativity aimed at them - and they believe everything is ALL about them. And, clearly, they have no concept of the value of a human life or the accountability involved in taking one.

Frightening.

 

[Snoopster]

Another current disturbing case...where the teens believe it is all about them:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6334391


In this case the two teen murderers were also into violent video games and they planned the murder on MSN chat. In the case of one of teens, his father was previously convicted of a similar crime....luring, sexual assault, torture and burning of a body. So, he was 'genetically' predisposed, I suppose. Was it nature or nurture?

These cases are so beyond my comprehension!

 

[shadowraiths]

Another current disturbing case...where the teens believe it is all about them:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6334391

Was it nature or nurture?

These cases are very different, actually. And sadly. The case of the candian teen killers appears to involve a sexually sadistic element. Whereas this case appears to be closer to rage killing. While both horrific crimes the typologies are quite different.

As for the nature v nurture debate? Am pretty sure the psych community has come to the agreement that both play a role. In cases such as these, predisposition + family dysfunction.

Wrt the family dysfunction angle and this case, it's not very tough to figure out where at least two of the kids gets their attitude from. ( link, emphasis added, mine )

Authorities say Havens knew about the plan in advance — and that he drove Bargo to Starke after the killing.

As he was released from jail Wednesday on bond, Havens said he hadn't believed that the group would actually go through with the crime — and that he was worried about his own future.

"I'm looking at a lot of years [in prison] right now," he told television reporters. "I'm scared."​

I admittedly have a few choice words for a guy who is more concerned about going to prison than he is about the murder of a 15-year old boy. Importantly, that he did not bother to notify authorities when he heard their murderous plan. As for these kids? Unfortunately, they've made their choice, one that they will have to live with. And hopefully? The full force of the law will be brought in this case.

 

[mysteriew]

Yeah before the murder he couldn't be bothered to do anything. After the murder, he was more worried about himself than about the boys and his family or even about the kids who committed the murder and his own wife.

 

[shadowraiths]

There is something that just doesn't seem to fit right with this story. Am not saying these kids did not murder Seath. Just questioning their version of events. From the article:

As soon as Seath entered the house, Bargo, Hooper and Soto began to hit him in the head with wooden objects. Ely told detectives that she ran into her bedroom after she saw Hooper hit Seath.

Bargo shot Seath several times with a .22-caliber revolver, according to the arrest documents. As Seath tried to leave the house, Soto tackled him, and Bargo shot him again, according to the Sheriff's Office.

Amber watched the killing, according to the documents.

The teens and Soto then placed Seath's body in a bathtub so Bargo could break Seath's knees in order to hogtie him and place him in a sleeping bag more easily. Soto said he and Bargo realized that Seath was still alive, so Bargo shot the boy again, according to the documents. Seath's body was then placed into a blue bag.

Soto said at that point he helped look for firewood, and the group then burned Seath's body in a fire pit in the backyard until it was just ashes and bone fragments.

They used a shovel to scrape Seath's remains from the fire pit and dumped them into several 5-gallon paint cans, according to the documents.

The group cleaned the house with bleach, according to the documents.

[...]

Late Wednesday, detectives were still searching for evidence and Seath's remains at the home where he was killed and at a lime pit in Ocala. ( link )​

Based upon the violence described in the above excerpt, there should be blood evidence all over the place. Even if they scrubbed the place down, there is no way to remove every single drop. We're talking Locard's exchange principle, here. Then there's the cremation bit. According to this site ( link ), cremation fires burn at approx 2000°F and the fire must be at least 1600°F. Furthermore, the body is burned in a closed space. Yet, the above excerpt says they looked for and used firewood to burn the body in a fire pit in the back yard to the point it was just "ash and bone fragments." Wood burning fires burn from 900°-1200°F. ( link ) In this case, since we're speaking of an open fire pit, not a crematorium, or even kiln. The, imho, temperature was likely at the low end. Then there's the bit of looking for the remains in a lime pit. What happened to the paint cans? Would lime destroy them in under two days? Now, add to this the fact that this "burning" took place in a housing development where neighbors lived close enough they could hear the loud music when the kids played it? Has anyone here ever smelled burning flesh? Also, how could the neighbors not hear the gunshots? A .22 calibur pistol still makes noise.

All things considered? Hate to say it but it sounds like these kids have been watching too much TV. Again, not saying they did not murder Seath. Just questioning their version of events.

 

[mysteriew]

You make some good points. Esp about the odor.

I think a body can be burned in a firepit, because I have heard it before. But it usually takes longer and some fragments remain, maybe larger fragments.

I would also wonder about the fire. The length of time and the amount of wood it would have taken to burn his body, did no neighbors complain about the fire? Did they not connect it to the later reports of the missing boy? Did no neighbor wander over to see what they were up to? Maybe get a beer or whatever their party was? If it was an apartment complex, then they didn't live in a vaccuum.

 

[cluciano63]

I am afraid that a bunch of kids talking about killing someone is not as shocking as it should be, to some people. Kids are much tougher and in a lot of cases, more cruel (or so it seems) these days and say things most of us never even thought. I'm not say stepdad shouldn't have done something to try to prevent it, but I can almost see where he didn't believe they really meant it.

This is truly sick; the gang mentality is so scary to me. It has always existed, but it seems to be taking over younger and younger groups.