For those who believe Darlie innocent - help me understand.

Discussion in 'Darlie Routier' started by TexasLori, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. TexasLori

    TexasLori New Member

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    I have been reading on these threads a lot the past few days and I want to to ask the Darlie supporters their take on what I think are the most telling pieces of evidence. In the spirit of transparency, I do believe Darlie is guilty and I think the evidence shows she is. However, I respect everyone's viewpoint and I am not disparaging or putting down anyone who believes otherwise. I am hoping someone who believes she is innocent will help me understand their thoughts.

    What do Darlie supporters say to the following:

    1. the blood/cleanup at the sink

    2. the cast off blood on the back of Darlie's shirt

    3. the changing of her story so many times

    4. the absence of blood of a third (fourth?) party

    5. the seemingly staged nature of the crime scene

    6. besides the cut screen and the sock in the alley, no evidence of an intruder gaining entry or making an exit

    Again, I ask these questions with respect and hope everyone will be respectful when answering and reading the thread. I am not here to try to change anyone's mind. I have found recently that a few posters who I think are very smart and I highly respect believe that Darlie is innocent and I really want to understand where they are coming from. We are all friends here!
     
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  3. Sinsaint

    Sinsaint New Member

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    [​IMG]

    Left side of sink...

    [​IMG]

    Right side of sink...

    [​IMG]

    Front of sink...

    What part of the sink appears clean? I know that sounds like a snide question. It's not intended to be. The sink does not appear to be cleaned in any way. Two sponges were collected. No blood on either. The cleaners underneath the sink were inspected. Again, no blood. If I am to believe Darlie cut herself at the sink and then cleaned it up, I have to also believe she did it with nothing but water and her hands. The only thing the sink looks like is one that had blood in it as well as water. The presence of nothing more than water doesn't indicate a clean up job to me.

    But, I'll take it a step further. If the sink is where she slit her throat, stabbed her shoulder and stabbed her arm twice, where is all the cast-off blood? Aside from the sink there should be at least a few blood drops on the window, curtains, wall, counter, etc. there is absolutely no indication she was cut at the sink or cleaned it out.

    There was one (1) spot on the back of Darlie's shirt. Bevel could not tell if this single stain came from up to down or down to up.

    [​IMG]

    Back of shirt... The yellow circle indicates the drop of flood from Devon.

    [​IMG]

    Front of shirt...

    Look at the shirt. On the left neck area side of the shirt there is evidence blood pooled in that direction. The cut to her throat was on the right. Gravitationally, the blood would only pool to that side if, at some point, she were laying on her left side. None of the responders ever testified she laid down at the scene. The only logical conclusion is that she was laying on her left side which would expose her back to the attack on Devon who was within feet of where she was laying.

    Another thing to remember... The fabric of your shirt isn't going to stay in the same position when you are laying on your side as would if you are in an upright position. I could be laying on my side with my shirt wrinkled and pulling downward so the fabric is actually pulled sideways. A spot hits on one of those wrinkles. When I stand up the shirt is going to shift. The spot will be in the same location on the shirt but now the shirt has moved making the spot appear to be going up to down or down to up.

    I'm not sure how her story has changed so many times. Keeping in mind that it's very probable she passed out (was "sleeping") at some point during the attack, her memories of the event could be confusing even to herself. She remembered parts of the attack and put them together as best as she could. On the whole her stories are consistent. She was attacked on the couch, followed him out of the house, gave a description of the guy.

    The only person who claims she said there was a struggle or attack in the kitchen is Waddell. First, he testified his only conversations with Darlie were before Walling showed up. Walling was the officer who arrived on the scene at the end of the 911 call. So, to put it bluntly, anything Darlie told him would be recorded on the 911 call. He's first heard on the tape at 3 minutes 45 seconds. Per testimony he stated he could have been on the scene 30 seconds to a minute prior to that.

    Waddell's testimony:

    4 Q. Okay. Did she give you any other
    5 information at that time about this person, or what may
    6 have happened?
    7 A. She told me what had happened.
    8 Q. Okay. Just tell the members of the
    9 jury what the defendant told you had happened right
    10 there.
    11 A. She told me that she had got into a
    12 fight with somebody that broke into her house. She
    13 fought with the suspect. She told me she fought with him
    14 at the end of the bar here, and that he ran across the
    15 kitchen.
    16 Q. All right. Did she describe what kind
    17 of fight had occurred here in this area?
    18 A. She just said that she had fought with
    19 him.
    20 Q. All right. Are you sure it was this
    21 area that she was indicating to?
    22 A. Yes, sir.
    23 Q. How was she indicating that area
    24 between the family room and the kitchen as being the
    25 place of the struggle?

    1 A. As she was telling me, she was walking
    2 in this direction, and then she pointed right to that
    3 area.

    4 Q. All right. If you could, Officer,
    5 please take the red pen again, just put an "X" at the
    6 place where she says the struggle occurred, and just
    7 label that as "struggle."
    8 A. Okay.
    9 Q. All right. Now, if we can, if we can
    10 pick this up from the point where she is now giving the
    11 description, she has told you what's happened, she's now
    12 pointed out the place where this struggle occurred.
    13 What's the next thing that you recall happening?
    14 A. We both -- we walked back over to this
    15 area here, and I could see that this child here was
    16 laying on the floor on his stomach, on his left side of
    17 his face and he was looking up at both of us making some
    18 noises, like he was trying to breathe.


    Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
    320 and 321

    So, all this conversation is on tape right? Wrong. And what's more, his testimony indicates Darlie walked right into the kitchen and, no doubt, had to be pointing right to this area of a struggle where a vacuum cleaner was laying. Guess what...

    6 Q. Okay. Let me see if I can find out
    7 what you said.
    8 You were asked if there were any --
    9 you've seen the photographs since then, haven't you? In
    10 your preparation, you've seen a vacuum cleaner on the
    11 floor, haven't you?
    12 A. Yes.
    13 Q. Now, were you asked were there any
    14 large objects lying on the floor, and did you answer, "I
    15 didn't see any --" talking about the kitchen?
    16 A. Yes.
    17 Q. Did you answer that?
    18 A. That sounds right, yes.
    19 Q. Okay. Nothing you could trip over if
    20 you were walking to the sink and you said you didn't see
    21 any; is that right?
    22 A. Well, I didn't see anything.


    Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
    405

    Darlie is walking over there (through glass no less), pointing right at where the vacuum cleaner is and he didn't see it? Okay.

    We don't know there was an absence of a fourth parties blood. We only know the items tested didn't have unidentified blood. There's tons of blood throughout that crime scene that wasn't tested.

    Well, if you believe Darlie staged the crime scene then this is a list of all the staging you must believe she did...

    Take off underwear and hide them...
    Stab boys...
    Get a sock and smear both boys' blood on it...
    Grab a bread knife (but make sure to wash hands first so the boys' blood isn't on it because that would be bad)....
    With sock in one hand and knife in the other, being careful not to get blood on the bread knife, open the gate and run 75 yards down the alley to plant the sock...
    Return home and shut pesky gate...
    Cut screen with bread knife from the outside...
    Go back in house any other way than the cut screen...
    Return the bread knife to the block...
    Grab the butcher knife and cut her throat...
    Stab her shoulder...
    Stab her arm...
    Stab arm again just for good measure...
    Cut her face...
    Beat the crap out of her arms and hands to leave bruises and abrasions...
    Open up the cabinets under the sink but opt not to use any of the cleaners stored under there...
    Clean off the knife...
    Clean out the sink...
    Clean off the faucets, all without using the sponge sitting right there...
    Walk half way through the kitchen on the right side of the island...
    Turn around and go back to smear blood on the light switch...
    Return to the living room and fling blood on coffee table...
    Plant a bloody fingerprint on the table...
    Put on a pair of boots and walk behind the couch leaving bloody footprints...
    Hide those boots...
    Roll on the couch and blanket she was using...
    Put the pillow on the couch and lay there so the blood has a pattern consistent with someone laying there as blood from a neck wound ran down either side and landed on the pillow...
    Put the pillow on the floor...
    Knock over the lamp...
    Knock over the coffee table...
    Push the vacuum cleaner around the kitchen a few times...
    Lay the vacuum down in the kitchen once she's done...
    Plant blood on the towel drawer she never got towels out of...
    Run all over the downstairs depositing a bunch of towels she never got...
    Stab Damon a second time when he gets to the entryway of the room...
    Smear her blood on the wall where Damon is now laying...
    Walk over to the area near the fireplace and leave a knife imprint on the carpet...
    Clean off a bloody handprint on the couch...
    Make sure she puts the knife on the kitchen floor so there is a knife imprint there as well should anyone look to find one...
    Plant a bloody fingerprint on the door...
    Put the knife on the counter...
    Break a glass just to make it look good...
    Pick up pieces of the glass and put them in the ice bucket on top of the wine rack...
    Call 911...
    Pretend like she cared in front of her husband...
    Act completely unconcerned when emergency personnel arrive...

    And in approximately two minutes no less.

    Many crimes go unsolved because the perpetrator didn't leave any or not enough identifiable evidence behind. Say, for argument's sake, Darlie had died from her injuries and, let's just say Darin wasn't home that night, out of town on business, nowhere near the home so he's completely ruled out as a suspect.

    So, the cops search and search all the evidence and find nothing that can point them to a suspect entering the home, aside from that screen cut from the outside and that pesky sock. What are you left with? An unsolved triple homicide. If the cops eventually decided, because they couldn't track down a suspect, Darlie killed the boys and then slit her throat to commit suicide, would you buy it? Hardly.
     
  4. cami

    cami Keep your fork......

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    Perhaps you'd benefit from reading the testimony of the technicians who were in the kitchen that night and observed the sink.

    1 Charles Linch is one.

    2 Tom Bevel's testimony on the cast off blood

    3 Darlie's cross examine by the state re her changing stories

    4. I don't know.

    5 & 6 James Cron.

    Here's a video to get you started. Analyzing the Blood Clues

    http://www.fmgondemand.com/play/5AEJKS
     
  5. TexasLori

    TexasLori New Member

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    Thank you cami. I am pretty well read on the evidence, just wanting to know how the other side explains it.
     
  6. Evianna13

    Evianna13 New Member

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    I have always believed that Darlie was a victim of a horrible crime. I think the police focused on her and therefore did not focus on the intruder theory. When Elizabeth Smart was found one of the things her father said first was "yes, the screen was cut from the outside" to explain the opinion the police had that it was cut from inside. We now know that intruders CAN get inside a house and police cannot prove it. As for her "changing" her story....she was again not only a victim but an eye witness of the most horrible of crimes. How often do we hear that eye witness testimony is unreliable?? Many people have been sentenced based on eye witness testimony and later were exonerated because eye witness testimony can not be trusted! I worked in an ICU at a large university hospital for 11 years. I saw patients who were car accident survivors many, many times. The bruises that Darlie had were the same as patients involved in high velocity car accidents. I believe that Darlie fought for her life against a very strong male and sustained those blackened bruises. As a mother I'm sure she was in shock after what had happened to her and her sons and was unable to maintain consistency of her story. If she wanted to murder her 2 older sons and then take her own life why then did she not complete this scenario and kill her husband and baby then herself?
     
  7. blefuscu

    blefuscu Bsc (hons) Criminology

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    But there is zero evidence of an intruder.
     
  8. SuzDuJour

    SuzDuJour Active Member

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    How did she do on her polygraph/s?
     
  9. blefuscu

    blefuscu Bsc (hons) Criminology

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    Reported both she and Darin failed
     
  10. ScarlettScarpetta

    ScarlettScarpetta When the going gets tough, drink coffee

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    See the problem with a thread like this is that, OP asked for people who believe she is innocent to post their reasons.. but a dozen people will come and start saying why she isn't and so people will not feel free to post how they feel without being ganged up on or picked on for their opinion.
    It would be nice if those who do believe she is guilty just kind of left it alone and read along.. At least you may end up understanding why people who think she is innocent feel that way. Maybe see another perspective.JMO
     
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  11. SuzDuJour

    SuzDuJour Active Member

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    Point taken...
     
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  12. Madeleine74

    Madeleine74 Of course it's my opinion, who else's would it be?

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    The problem is when one starts from a position of belief, everything else gets judged against belief vs what can be determined factually. Instead of believing any scenario, look at the evidence and then see what the evidence says. Then look at the witness statements (Darlie, et. al.) and see how that fits the evidence.

    It's not useful to use a different case to judge another case. Elizabeth Smart was abducted and it was by a man because there was an eye witness to that abduction (her little sister who pretended to stay asleep). So the crimes are not even similar.

    What motive was there in the Routier case? 2 small sleeping boys. Confirmed they had been sleeping at the time of the attack. Robbery? Nothing of value was taken, including multiple jewelry items left out. Why did the intruder need to grab a knife when he already had one to slash the window screen to get in to the house? Why were fibers that were consistent with the cut window screen found on a knife in the knife block? What does the evidence tell you?

    Throw out all beliefs. Throw out the "a mother couldn't do this to her sons." Throw out your 'feelings.' How does the physical evidence at the scene support an intruder being responsible for the murders? You have to look at the evidence. Look where the blood is. Look where blood was found. Look where blood showed up in luminol tests. The blood doesn't lie. Start with the physical evidence, not with your feelings and emotions.
     
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  13. Evianna13

    Evianna13 New Member

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    How often have we heard this same thing in other cases?? Elizabeth Smart and JonBenet Ramsey for example. When the police focus on someone inside/family they fail to explore the other options. People tend to think the police investigators are perfect and make no mistakes. This is NOT true! Some CSI's are not trained beyond basics. They do make mistakes! I worked in Law Enforcement as a 911 Police/Fire Dispatcher in a large crime ridden city in South Florida for 9 years so I know personally that mistakes can be made and are made frequently. I don't know how anyone can look at the injuries on Darlie and not conclude that she could not have inflicted them upon herself. There is a huge unknown factor with the sock in the alley. Was every single blood stain tested for DNA? With a terribly bloody crime scene like this one every single piece of evidence needs to be tested. I have always believed that this mother was an innocent victim of a crime and near fatal injuries were inflicted upon her. Her bruises were worse than any car accident victim I ever saw while working in an ICU at a Level I Trauma Center for 11 years. The knife wound was mere centimeters from being fatal. If I were to believe she inflicted this upon herself with the intent of covering her tracks I would then have to believe that she cut herself under fluoroscopy to ensure she was close but not close enough to kill herself. If ONLY people involved in this case would take a step back and think....OK, if Darlie did not do this who did?
     
  14. Madeleine74

    Madeleine74 Of course it's my opinion, who else's would it be?

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    So, if I understand correctly, what forms the basis of belief in D.R.'s innocence can be boiled down to:

    - Opinion of other cases not remotely connected to this case.
    - Knowing that CSI's are human and can make mistakes (especially those in FL, apparently. But wait. CSIs collect the evidence, Forensic/DNA testing is done by others in a crime lab).
    - Insisting that every single piece of evidence collected, and every single blood spot needed to be DNA tested.
    - That the people investigating this case (who didn't know any of the Routiers) didn't have the belief, "Darlie didn't do this, so who did?"


    mmmkay.
     
  15. Madeleine74

    Madeleine74 Of course it's my opinion, who else's would it be?

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    {Just an FYI on the JonBenet Ramsey case since that was mentioned as an example of an intruder case. There was no intruder; it was a crime committed by someone inside the family, there was staging, and there were only 3 other humans present in that home. No comment about who in the family might be the perp, but the evidence is compelling beyond any reasonable doubt to take 'intruder' out of the mix. Grand Jury indictment confirmed that, in addition to the many investigators over the years.}
     
  16. Tulessa

    Tulessa Well-Known Member

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    Hubby was LE. You would be surprised to find out, just HOW MANY cases are used for comparison of one certain case. It's used every day. MOO.
     
  17. Madeleine74

    Madeleine74 Of course it's my opinion, who else's would it be?

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    Other cases used for comparison of what? And used in court?

    I go by evidence and testimony presented in a case to make my determination, not by 'other cases' that happened that might or might not have any similarity. Every case is different.

    The evidence presented in a case either convinces me beyond a reasonable doubt, or it doesn't. Fortunately in this case we do have the trial transcripts as that doesn't often happen, especially in non-televised trials.
     
  18. Tulessa

    Tulessa Well-Known Member

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    I stated a fact. If I need to submit proof, consider it rumor. :)
     
  19. Madeleine74

    Madeleine74 Of course it's my opinion, who else's would it be?

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    You made a statement, but you didn't give it any context. It's the context that's missing. So I'll take it at face value: at least 1 or more persons in LE (maybe including your husband when he was in LE) used other prior murder cases to judge a pending murder case before them.

    How and whether the practice of using a different murder case by 1 or more LE folk relates specifically to the Routier murder case has not been clarified. (I'm thinking it doesn't relate at all to this case but is a general statement about 1 or more LE people Tulessa knows or knows of who did this practice).
     
  20. Madeleine74

    Madeleine74 Of course it's my opinion, who else's would it be?

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    Imagined usage of such a technique in a courtroom:


    DefenseAttorney: "Ladies & Gentleman of the jury, you will hear how this case, the murder of 2 innocent sleeping boys, tucked safe in their sleeping bags in the family room of their house in 1996 in Rowlett, TX is similar to the case of a young 13 year old girl who in 2002 was awoken from a sound sleep in her bedroom and taken, threatened with a knife pointed at her, by a middle age male intruder who had once worked as a laborer on the family's home. That intruder was a homeless drifter who imagined himself a prophet from God, and it was his desire to start a polygamous family and take several young girls and force them to be his brides... well, what that case had is an intruder coming into the house through a kitchen window that was left open after the family made their dinner, and that intruder used a knife he carried and cut through the window screen and..."

    ProsAttorney: "Objection, your honor! Relevance!?!"


    Judge: SUSTAINED! "Counsel, keep your remarks on this case!" "Ladies & Gentleman of the jury, you are to disregard counsel's remarks concerning any other case."
     
  21. cami

    cami Keep your fork......

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    I completely agree, There were no intruders. Just Patsy and John and both are culpable IMO
     

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