Christopher Clements indicted for Isabel Celis & Maribel Gonzales homicides
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Forensic Botany

Discussion in 'Caylee Anthony 2 years old' started by BondJamesBond, Jan 9, 2009.

  1. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    I saw some interesting questions being asked on another thread and with the report today regarding plant growth through the skeletal remains...well...this seems a threadworthy topic IMHO.

    *snipped*

    ETA: For reference...

     
  2. Pattymarie

    Pattymarie New Member

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    I too, thought this was an interesting question. In forensic botany, can it be determined that one plant has come from seedlings of another? Or are all hibiscus plants the same?
     
  3. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    FWIW, I just Googled "hibiscus germination" and w/o too much reading found at least one source stating 7-21 days.

    http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/seed/msg0823015724304.html

    "Yes! I always nick the seeds and soak them for about 24-48 hours before planting. They should come up in 7-21 days maybe longer. Hibiscus are one of my favorite plants."

    I'm not suggesting the conditions are the same...just that some focused Google-time might yield some answers regarding when the hibiscus will seed, etc.

    Happy sleuthing!
     
  4. debs

    debs Former Member

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    KageyKaren,

    Can you provide a link that shows that they removed plants? I have never seen the confirmation of that.
     
  5. sharpar

    sharpar If dogs dont go to heaven I want to go where they

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    its possible - and plants also have dna with the A bush
    to compare they would be able to prove beyond any doubt that is where
    the new plant came from.

    Plants like bugs have standard life cycles if conditions are adaquate.
    They have requirements but if those are met then plant grows blooms
    seeds and either goes dormant or dies.

    I believe the bug and plant guys will be the most important witnesses
    in this trial . What they are going to be able to prove will seal her fate
    and astound many.

    Its going to be fascinating to watch
     
  6. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    Other FWIW, I believe the early reports indicated the bag had been stowed up under some palmettos...IIRC.
     
  7. Theonly1

    Theonly1 New Member

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    Carrying over from another thread, I said that Dioscorea bulbifera which is called air potato vine is literally all over the bushes and trees in area little Caylee was dumped. It can grow fast and THICK making it hard to see her little bones.

    BJB, the AIR potato vine variety.

    http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AG112
     
  8. kageykaren

    kageykaren Lindsey Love, Universal Child your are the star &

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    So would those mature plants have been visible to the human eye from the street. Would these plants stand out amongest the natural growth wher the body was found? If we compare the videos from the PI heck even the psychic would we see these plants? Am I way off base thinking that these plants may be able to tell if the videos mentioned are from the eact area?
     
  9. Sammi99

    Sammi99 New Member

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    Using forensic botany it is possible to show that Casey was in the woods (where the remains are found) by finding soil with pollen that she could have trailed to the Pontiac.

    The bag may have some grains of soil that are foreign to the wooded area and can be traced back to the A's yard.

    The fact that we now know that roots were growing through the remains can show how long the remains were in that area. If they were moved or not.

    There are many possibilities.
     
  10. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    Thanks, Theonly1. Since, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"...I'm a vewy, vewy dangerous man. :bang:

    FWIW, I deleted my post on the vine since you nailed it...just tryin' to kick-start the thread w/ what I'd seen.
     
  11. kageykaren

    kageykaren Lindsey Love, Universal Child your are the star &

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    Deb I can't link the exact source of the LE crw taking the plants so hopefully someone will help me with that. Even if the FBI didn't remove plants Caylees body may have had pollen on it from transfering Caylee at some point. Even seedlings are difficult to see & were probably not washed off of Caylee at that time. KC wouldn't have thought of that during her panicked moment.
     
  12. bailee

    bailee New Member

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    Perhaps KC carried some sort of identifiable insectiside or lime from the yard to the dumping site?

    I always wondered obout those bottles being removed...
     
  13. MADJGNLAW

    MADJGNLAW Active Member

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    The mention of the grows into the skull has really hit a nerve. So, this means the poor body was there all this time and nobody ever found it. I had to take a deep breath and try to do a little research on what Forensic Botany is. Though I would share this link below. As for the plants taken from the yard, does anyone recall way back in the beginning of the case Cindy had either moved one of her plants and claimed she was in the process of re-doing her yard? That is when the talk of cement came in but turned out to be paver's. could those white broken items at the crime scene be paver's from the yard and that is why the body was so hard to find and the storm broke them up or who ever knew the body was there broke it up? I have a gut feeling that is going to come into discussion again.
    It is said a criminal always leaves something at the crime scene, or takes something away. Very often, trace botanical evidence can link an object or suspect to the scene of a crime, A plant's anatomy and its ecological requirements are in some cases species-specific; correct interpretation of botanical evidence can give vital information about a crime scene or the whereabouts of a suspect or victim.
    The first botanical testimony to be heard in a North American court concerned the analysis of the wood grain of the ladder used in the kidnapping of Charles Lindbergh Jr., and led to the conviction of Bruno Hauptmann for the crime in 1935. Today, forensic botany encompasses numerous Transverse section of spruce, Picea sp.
    subdisciplines of plant science: palynology, anatomy and dendrochronology, limnology, systematics, ecology, and molecular biology.

    This site briefly reviews the techniques used in these areas and their applications to criminal and civil cases, and includes a selection of relevant literature and links. http://myweb.dal.ca/jvandomm/forensicbotany/
     
  14. whiteangora

    whiteangora I'm on the right track baby. I was "Born This Way"

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    There is some video of LE carrying 2 large plants in the middle of the road to one of their vehicles.
     
  15. ThoughtElf

    ThoughtElf Former Member

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    Det. Allen did say the videos were very helpful. If the FBI can use the video to compare plant size/growth from mid-November to the size/growth on Dec. 11th, this could be a significant help.

    I don't think you are off base at all.
     
  16. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    I added the link to crime scene photos in post#1...here it is for convenience.

    Disposal site crime scene photos here:
    http://www.rsxtaci.com/Caylee/

    You'll hafta search for the ones you want and maybe post the filenames for botany interests here. Lotsa overhead shots in here too to sort through until you get what you want.

    ETA: I also added the original link to the news report & the video to post#1 this thread.

    Hope it helps.
     
  17. Sammi99

    Sammi99 New Member

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    The presence of algae can confirm what TM has been saying about the remains being underwater during the time he was searching in that area.
     
  18. BondJamesBond

    BondJamesBond Blunt Instrument

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    ...ok...leaving make-believe-moderator role and returning to poster-role...

    I'm curious about the report that the plant was growing through the skeletal remains and how intact it was after Meter Reader Kronk picked up the bag. I haven't paid close attn to Mr. Kronk's account, but, I envision him lifting the bag off the ground...which maybe all wrong. I've cleared plenty of fence rows where the vines are so thick its like they have every intention of 'hanging on' to whatever they've started to grow around. Soooo...maybe Mr. Kronk just lifted the bag a little and it shifted enough for the skull to come out w/o disturbing the growth THROUGH other remains OR the vines were THROUGH the skull and it didn't go far enough to disengage from the vines entirely.

    Jus' noodlin' on how the scene was disturbed prior to being examined such that they could identify EXACTLY which plants had grown THROUGH the remains. It would seem to me knowing exactly which ones would be critical to establishing timeline, etc. from them.

    Jus' thinking out loud.

    If someone familiar w/ Kronk's account, etc. can clarify any of this I would appreciate it.

    TIA!
     
  19. kageykaren

    kageykaren Lindsey Love, Universal Child your are the star &

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    I'm just going to throw this out there for thought only. In the beginning of the case when we didn't have much to go on for sluething, many of us read the psychic threads. Please don't ask me to link but many of the psychic posters discussed pink flowery plants near Caylee. OOOOOEOOOO! When looking at some of the videos released of the crie scene does anyone else see these flowers? Also I guess I better google growth maturity for palmettos. How big would have those seedlings become? I'v never been able to grow plants well but after this discussion I might just go buy a hibiscus!
     
  20. passionflower

    passionflower Just 1 tip to find a killer

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    IIRC 1 said 'yellow' flowers..........either way, little CAYLEE will tell her story in full from the grave!:eek:mom :behindbar:woohoo:
     

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