Forensic evidence

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by rashomon, Oct 28, 2006.

  1. rashomon

    rashomon New Member

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    [​IMG]

    What I find very puzzling in the right autopsy picture: there is a second reddish circular mark/bruise around JB's neck below the cord.
    How did this mark get there? It seems it was not caused by the cord, for the cord is in another place.

    Had something else been pulled around JB' neck before?

    Or was the cord first pulled around JB's neck to strangle her, and afterwards the knot was tied? And as the knot was being tied, the cord was pushed upwards?

    I also read something in a crime fiction book which might explain the type of marks on JB too. From Donna Leon "Fatal Remedies", p. 127 (Donna Leon is a very popular crime fiction author here in Europe).

    [the victim, Mitri, has been strangled and there are two circular indentations in his neck. The coroner Dr. Rizzardi comes to the following conclusion in his report]:

    "The double mark on Mitri's neck was, he had determined, a hesitation mark on the part of the murderer, who had probably loosened the cord momentarily to tighten his grip, shifting it and thus leaving a second indentation in Mitri's flesh."

    Maybe something similar happened with JB? The perp tried to tighten his/her grip, loosened the cord and shifted it, and that's why there are two circular marks around JB's neck?
     
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  3. Rupert

    Rupert Former Member

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    I found the following Bonita Papers site very informative:
    http://www.crimeandjustice.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=1588

    I read somewhere that the red triangle is simply livermortis settling of blood. That suggests she was lying face down for some time. Then the perp turned her over because that's the way she was found face up. I doubt an intruder molester would wait around.

    I wonder what UKGuy has to add.
     
  4. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    You and me both.
     
  5. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    The second mark has an upward angle, making it look as if she'd been hanged.
     
  6. kaykay

    kaykay New Member

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    Or dragged??

    kaykay
     
  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    More likely the person started higher.
     
  8. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    JonBenet Face Right Enlarged:
    http://i11.tinypic.com/48n29sp.jpg


    I have rotated and enlarged the autopsy photo using specialized software that yields little degradation, so it highlights the details e.g. the mucus on her cheek.

    The livor-mortis on her face is of a different hue from her neck, where there are many hues and tints.

    imo the lower outstanding reddish marks result from manual strangulation.

    Out of curiosity I also enlarged the JonBenet Hand Heart image many many times e.g. it is now 5MB in size, but yields more detail.

    JonBenet Hand Heart:
    http://i12.tinypic.com/2qwhfzc.jpg


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  9. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Here's something about the "garrote:"

    "Its elevation at every point around the neck was equal in distance from the shoulders, indicating that it had NOT been tied during a struggle."--PMPT
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    rashomon,

    If you read Coroner Meyer's Autopsy report he states:


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    That is asphyxia by strangulation and Ligature strangulation now taking into account Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarks regarding JonBenet being digitally penetrated, its likely that Coroner Meyer was aware he was dealing with a staged homicide?

    I think its possible that Coroner Meyer considered the ligature and garrote as cosmetic, since the lack of underlying physical damage to JonBenet's trachea, hyoid structures, and the neat circumferential ligature loop, which exhibits few marks along its cirumference etc, must surely have led such an experienced MD as Coroner Meyer to conclude that although the ligature may have played a part in JonBenet's asphyxiation, it need not have been looped around her neck exactly where it was when she was examined?


    imo a ligature and it need not have been the one found looped around her neck on dicovery in the wine-cellar, this is the nature of the staging, its designed to deflect your attention away from what may have occurred?

    The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene, JonBenet was killed elsewhere in the house, the blankets, the garrote and ligature are all designed to present a fake homicide.

    Its unlikely that JonBenet was killed accidently, accidents do not need homicides to mask them, particularly one as violent as that portrayed in the wine-cellar.

    The wine-cellar staging was plan-B as evidenced by John Ramsey's desire to leave Colorado by plane, the morning of the 911 call, this was its likely true motivation.

    JonBenet had been murdered then a staging applied this was then revised to that of the wine-cellar in the hope that the Ramsey's could exit interstate, that was the strategy, and it nearly worked.

    Somebody fuelled by immense anger decided to take JonBenet out she was subjected to numerous head injuries, not discounting the cranial fracture, and asphyxiated, or it was the other way round, whichever, this was no accident.


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  11. Rupert

    Rupert Former Member

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    UKGuy,
    Are you saying John Ramsay planned the flight to Charlevoix all as part of the planned murder of JonBenet?

    I find your proposal that it was premeditated, fascinating but hard to believe.

    Note, many people believe that John wanted to leave by plane after finding JonBenet. I read that that is a misunderstanding, that he just wanted to call Archuletta to let him know what happened and why the flight to Charlevoix was cancelled.
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Rupert,
    Well here is how I read it:

    Perfect Murder Perfect Town: Lawrence Schiller, chap 2.
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    Also around 1:30 PM

    Perfect Murder Perfect Town: Lawrence Schiller, chap 1.
    So there you are, the Ramsey hope was that the police would turn up do a cursory search and if JonBenet was not found then they would search outwards from the house, with the Ramsey's leaving for Atlanta, probably anywhere but Colorado, and out of jurisdiction?

    The flight to Atlanta was part of Plan-B, they never knew if it would work, but what else could they do, their prior staging was deemed inefective, so JonBenet was redressed , hair restyled, garrote applied, blankets added etc, all to suggest a bedtime abduction, then the 911 call was made the rest is history.

    What you see in the wine-cellar is not how it happened its a staged crime-scene, thats the scene the Ramsey's want you to view, how she died and how JonBenet and her crime-scene was cleaned up is hidden from view.

    There is more to the death of JonBenet than meets the eye, it goes beyond the theories promoted by the lead detectives e.g. Intruder vs. Accident, the forensic evidence suggests it is more complex.

    On the subject of blankets:
    http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm


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  13. coloradokares

    coloradokares New Member

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    Then why was he informed they could not go anywhere and to cancel the travel plans to Atlanta till advised otherwise.
     
  14. Rupert

    Rupert Former Member

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    I read that John said that was a misinterpretation. He was just cancelling his fight to Charlevoix. When I find it again, I will show it to you.

    Yeah, I wonder how Mason could get that wrong.
     
  15. Rupert

    Rupert Former Member

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    UKGuy,
    I too have wondered if it was premeditated, but didn't think it was John.

    When I look at the pictures, the poor girl.

    I don't believe they planned the Charlevoix flight in conjunctiion with the murder. I think something happened by someone with alot of rage.

    The lower ring and then the final upper location of the cord suggests that the perp tightened the garrote twice. To me that is controlled vicious murder (controlled rage). Perhaps someone who was cunning enough to leave no evidence.
     
  16. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    I agree that it was evidently someone too cunning to leave evidence, and just maybe the reason we haven't heard of another case just like this one, he may have considered it a work of art, one of a kind, a masterpiece of a murder. Exclusive for the Ramsey family. What could they have done to him? Rejection? Because he kept phoning to get attention from PR during the Grand Jury according to "The Patricia Letters" which I'm sure are still at ACandyRose.

    Nov. 5 Sunday night Nova talked about bog bodies, celtic sacrifices or maybe executions, preserved by bog chemicals for more than 2000 years. One had his hair pulled back in a little bun, which reminded me of JonBenet's hair maybe having been re-arranged, and had been bashed on the head with something both heavy and sharp. He was only 5'2" so they speculated the hair do was to make him look taller. Maybe. Maybe not. Another man, found only 25 mi away, was six and a half ft tall, and I don't know how they could tell because only a crab-shaped piece of torso was found, arms circled in front like a crab's. No head, no nothing lower than the chest. They drove stakes through their limbs to hold them on the bottom of the bog, covered by water. They could tell from hair and nails the men were well-nourished before their vicious murders.

    Another show was about a little Colorado boy killed in February 1996, who'd been adopted in Russia, and the adoptive mother couldn't put up with his "Terrible Two's", had her lawyer claim "Reactive Attachment Disorder" caused him to bang his head and otherwise harm himself, all over his back as well as his front. The mother seemed really nuts herself, was upset because the father had gone to play golf when she'd asked him not to leave her alone with the little boy, and called two therapists after she'd killed him instead of immediately calling 911, never did go to the hospital to even say goodbye when he was taken off life support, was busy arranging lawyers for herself. She even accused the toddler of masturbating, with the handle of a spatula she'd been using to protect herself from him. Impossible. Such a liar.

    She only had to serve 8 yrs of a prison sentence, sadly. Unlike PR, she was still trying to blame it all on the baby. I think this was in Greely, Co.
     
  17. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    More likely it was someone who made a first try, was revolted, then found the strength.
     
  18. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    The flight to Atlanta was part of Plan-B, they never knew if it would work, but what else could they do, their prior staging was deemed inefective, so JonBenet was redressed , hair restyled, garrote applied, blankets added etc, all to suggest a bedtime abduction, then the 911 call was made the rest is history.


    Uk, what are you talking about? The flight to Atlanta was part of Plan B? If their hope was that the Police would do a cursory search and if JB was not found, they would then go outwards, leaving the Ramseys to leave. Do you really believe that the Ramseys believed that the police would not search every inch of the house and before you answer that, why then does John bring the body upstairs and say he found her?

    Also, let's not forget that John Ramsey was reading John Douglas' book. He has to know that a "cursory" search of the house is not going to happen in a matter of a kidnapping. He knows the FBI will be brought in for a kidnapping. He knows they will be thorough. John Ramsey is not a stupid man. I don't see how you came to this conclusion, unless I am missing something and I will be happy to listen. Thanks, Solace

    Are you saying that they planned to take the body with them to Atlanta after the police did a cursory search of the house????

    Or if anyone else can explain the theory that UK poses, I am all ears. Thanks, Solace:rolleyes:
     
  19. T-Rex

    T-Rex New Member

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    So wait, "he, his wife, and his son" were going to fly to Atlanta.

    What about John Andrew and Melinda?

    They had left Atlanta that morning, and flown to Minneapolis. "But John Andrew had called his father from Minneapolis and learned about the kidnapping, and he and Melinda had taken a United Airlines flight to Denver."

    Would they be part of the flight back to Atlanta?

    What time did they leave for the airport in Atlanta that morning? Too early for JR to call and stop them? If JR had been involved in the planning, could he have called in time?
     
  20. Solace

    Solace New Member

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    This theory is so way out there. I wish someone could explain in more detail what UK is talking about.:banghead:
     
  21. coloradokares

    coloradokares New Member

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    T Rex yes indeed they were. He'd called his pilot to get the plane ready to depart for Atlanta not Charlevoix. Till BPD informed them they would not be traveling anywhere. I have not read whether Melinda and John Andrew would then travel back to Atlanta with them or not. I know they did when they left. Remember when the plans were diverted from plans to go to Charlevoix to Denver it was a kidnapping. By the time they arrived JonBenets body was already upstairs and he had informed them JonBenet was now with Beth and she was deceased. Who knows what plans were formulating in Johns mind regards travel for Melinda and John Andrew and Melinda's boyfriend. However Melinda's boyfriend did say that they were told John had found the body at 11. that is one of those glaring inconsistencies John tried to splain away by saying he adjusted for the time change. We all would probably agree that was not likely. More like he found her when he was in the basement alone. Moved her to the wine cellar and later brought her upstairs.
     

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