Forensic evidence

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by rashomon, Oct 28, 2006.

  1. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    rashomon,

    Possibly, but any rage theory must explain away not dialling 911 for medical assistance?

    The head bash was not visible or evident to the naked eye so it needed no deflecting staging?

    Any chronic sexual abuse is likely to receive deflecting staging.

    I consider Patsy was aware of the sexual abuse, I have another theory that factors in the pageants, John Ramsey's sexual pathology, and Patsy's inability to accomodate it, either due to cancer therapy or her own lack of desire motivated by abusive childhood experiences? Lets suggest Patsy knew she could never fulfill John so colluded to accomodate him in other ways.

    Due to the dysfunctional aspects of the Ramsey family life I doubt Patsy would have been enraged on discovering JonBenet being abused, she could rationalise that was one part of her life that was being taken care of?

    Well her head injuries are rather extensive, its not as if she has slipped and fallen on some household object.

    There are some interesting points to be considered regarding any rage theory, e.g. her head bash is to the back of her skull, and she has contusions to the side of her head, and abrasions on the front of her neck.

    So its possible the same object that caused the skull fracture caused the contusions on the side of her head? This appears as if it occurred from behind?


    The abrasions on the front of JonBenet's neck indicate she was initially manually strangled, and the skull fracture possibly occurred either when she was released or as a part of the assault? Assuming the latter then JonBenet was then hit about the head, as part of a coordinated assault, or this happened prior to the strangulation.

    Rage yes but not motivated from blaming the victim, it was something else, something that represented a threat to the Ramsey lifestyle?


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  2. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I wonder that, too.
    I can't help but think about the scream that was heard...it appears an assault occured in the basement,starting with either strangling or a head wound.In any event,JB wasn't 'out' after that, or unable to scream,as the perp thought she would surely be.(unskilled killer, it sounds like).I think that's when the largest wound to her skull occured,(the fracture going from the back of her skull to almost her nose,with the indented part in the middle).I suspect that was caused by the flashlight.(basement-dark,needs light,it was handy)IMO,I think that was the injury that caused complete unconciousness,as the screamed stopped suddenly,per MS.Everything else occured after that,inc. the vaginal assault and ligature strangulation.IMO, I think the manual strangling and whatever marks associated with that had already been inflicted by the time the head wound occured,or occured at the same time.
    The q is why????And was it planned?(ie-the santa visit mentioned to occur after xmas).Was JB about to drop the hat on someone? Is this still a prosecutable case?I can't help but think that the santa visit mentioned,as well as the fact JB was found in the basement,scream heard coming from the basment...flashlight handy...someone planned for something to occur,not necessarily murder though.JMO.
     
  3. nepenthe

    nepenthe New Member

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    Forgive me if this has been discussed before - I am new. JB was found wrapped in the blanket papoose style but with her arms over her head instead of enclosed in the blanket. I am wondering if this is because she was in rigor mortis at the time she was wrapped and the perp could not move her arms into another position. If the estimated time of death was approx 1am and rigor sets in at approx 3-4 hours, then her body was not wrapped in the blanket until around 4-5 am. Since urine stains were found outside the wine cellar, it is assumed she died there by the paint tote and could have been left there, face down, for several hours before being moved into the wine cellar just before the police were called. To me, this is further evidence one or both of the Rs killed her. No intruder would have remained in the house for that length of time.

    Just my opinion.
     
  4. Nuisanceposter

    Nuisanceposter Remembering Little Miss Christmas

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    I also assume her arms were not tucked next to her body inside the blanket because of rigor mortis. There's absolutely no way a killer would have hung around inside the R house doing all that was done. Killers and kidnappers both get out of the house as soon as possible, and take the victim somewhere else - they don't spend hours in the house feeding the victim and waiting for the food digest and then killing the person and waiting around to stage a crime scene, dealing with the onset of rigor mortis in the staging.

    There is no forensic evidence of anyone than the Ramseys being in that house that night. No one other than a resident would have felt as comfortable as this killer apparently did, taking his time and running up and down the steps while he cleaned up and redressed and lovingly wrapped the victim in a favorite blankey.
     
  5. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    You got that right about her arms. They were extended above her head, and according to the Bonita Papers, fibers were found under both arms, and PR asked JR were there bruises on her arms. (Why would she ask that, and say "Are you sure?")

    But I don't think we can jump to any concrete conclusion that nobody other than a family member could have felt so free in someone else's home. Callus boldness is obviously a given, and the ability to leave no forensic evidence pointing to himself just means cunning and experience in other crimes a perp might consider a work of art, no two exactly alike.

    The nerve of the possible intruder or intruders just means psycopathy and very possibly some connections that would scare off DA's. If Lacy were replaced, I'll bet you the same thing would happen yet again. Bungling may very well have been deliberate, all the way to the top, because of some kind of connections, not money. Some say FW had more money than JR, but FW had no influence, with all his letter-writing. It's evidently just not about money but something else.
     
  6. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    nepenthe,
    Hello there, its more than likely she was wrapped papoose style due to the rigor mortis, also similar reasoning applies to why she was not wearing her barbie-gown, and still clad in her gap-top day clothes?

    You assume she died next to the paint-tote, she may have been killed upstairs and brought downstairs to allow the upstairs crime-scene to be cleaned up and dissasociated with the wine-cellar?

    Nearly everything in the wine-cellar can be viewed as items of staging e.g. blankets link to her bed, which was meant to reflect a bedtime abduction, as per the ransom note. Similarly her barbie-gown and long-johns. But not her underwear or lack of socks, since realistically she would probably not normally be wearing underwear to bed, but if this part was premeditated then she had to be wearing underwear since she was allegedly placed directly to bed removing only her black velvet pants leaving her socks and underwear in place. So was she redressed in underwear to suit this restriction, if so why not socks?

    At a minimum the inconsistencies in the wine-cellar staging suggest it was a revised staging, since there was ample time to get it right , so to speak.

    Where was she redressed, wiped down, hair restyled etc, which elements occurred prior to being placed in the wine-cellar, and which after, or did they all take place in the wine-cellar?

    I was reading some details regarding Ted Bundy and apparently he kept some of the coeds he killed in his flat, even shampooing their hair, after they were dead. So patently BPD should know whether JonBenet had her hair washed or tinted prior to her death?


    Yes I agree , for years the Intruder Theory was standard fare, as was the Accident Theory, I personally suscribe to neither, since the forensic evidence does not support them.



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  7. rashomon

    rashomon Well-Known Member

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    Imo the term 'accident' is a bit misleading here:
    I think both IDIs and RDIs are in absolute agreement that had this been a true accident (e. g. JB fell against the bathtub or down the stairs without a parent involved who had pushed her), the Ramseys would have taken her to the hospital.
    There exists no Accident Theory imo. But there exists a "Rage Attack" theory. Rage attack meaning that yes, one parent struck out at JB in a rage, but had no idea that the blow would do such irreparable damage.

    For what is typical of rage is that it prevents people from thinking rationally and clearly.
    Which is why people have done things in a rage which they have forever regretted afterward. And I think that's what happened on that fatal night.
    But afterward, it is like cold shower for the rage attacker ("Oh my God, what have I done!").

    But instead of calling an ambulance and turning herself (I think it was Patsy who struck the blow) in to the police and take responsibility for her action, Patsy chose to save her hide. And John did not want to be exposed as JB's sexual abuser. So they worked together to cover this up and maintain their 'intact family' facade, and no doubt they did this also for Burke's sake.
     
  8. BBB167893

    BBB167893 Former Member

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    Very astute.

    He hadn't examined her for several months, and yes, it could build up over a little time.
     
  9. coloradokares

    coloradokares New Member

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    Money is money however Power is another matter. As you know coming from Boulder I think I have said I knew who the Ramseys were prior to the murder. I named the companies the street the company was located on and the sell of the Company over to Lockheed. That is the start of power structure. Add political local and beyond that again is power. Lets just say John knew whose hand to shake and who to form influential friendships with. I'd never heard of Fleet White. Some people have $$ and live rather quiet lives .
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    rashomon,

    It may be but its the line taken by supporters of Steve Thomas's bedwetting accident theory.

    I think JonBenet was initially manually strangled, and concurrently slapped or hit about her face, then either whacked on the head, or this was a consequence of her head landing on some household object, the rest is more or less staging. The opinion of CASKU was that the ligatures and garrote were additional staging.

    Now there may rage involved but it is not incidental or inadvertent, its focused upon killing JonBenet.

    Ted Bundy was impelled by an inner rage to kill coeds, Edmund Kemper cites a similar inner rage which compels him to kill, even to thinking I had thought of annihilating the entire block I lived on, both of these guys were intelligent, both planned their killings, and varied their MO, but an inner rage impelled them to kill.

    So although I accept:
    as a generalisation it does not mean that the intention to kill was absent.




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  11. rashomon

    rashomon Well-Known Member

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    But what is typical for rage killings is that they are not premeditated, and this is crucial in terms of the JB case.

    I would separate these rage killings from the serial killer type murders you mentioned, in which some deep-rooted 'inner' rage against women or whomever is at work and directs the perp's actions. For this is something else imo.

    I don't think some deep-rooted inner rage led Patsy or John to kill JonBenet.
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    rashomon,
    Well I assume you are typifying the rage as an irrational force lacking intent, which results in JonBenet's death?

    Its just as possible that her death was premeditated, although not planned, since the forensic evidence and the assumed sequence of events does not disallow this interpretation.


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  13. Rupert

    Rupert Former Member

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    I read the autopsy a number of times and have read what many people have said repeatedly, and am only aware of there being very little blood in the brain injury.
    http://drinkthis.typepad.com/shapiro/2006/05/the_ghost_of_ch.html

    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1048518253788

    I looked for the autopsy just now. If you find it, perhaps you could show me where it states there was alot of blood. This wasn't just Wecht's opinion.

    I agree if there was abuse going on and something made her snap, then that would explain the cover up, the likeness in writing, the loyalty, the lawyers, the cool affection on TV, the color purple ribbons in the Christmas tree, the My Twin Doll, ...

    Yes, that is a ugly. It might have been starting to surface.
     
  14. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    Yes, and I didn't know that about Ted Bundy, in UKGuy's post on the previous page, that he'd shampoo'd a victim's hair after she was dead. If JonBenet's hair had been tinted, or even just washed, I think there would be enough of an odor that anyone could tell. It may have been re-styled just with a comb and/or brush.

    Which to me sounds more like someone who wouldn't have had any other chance to fool with her hair than a family member, who would have had that opportunity many times before.

    Someone had slept in her bed at Charlevoix, who evidently wanted to get close to her.

    Sure, rage makes you lose control, but this hair styling and like that sound more like someone wanting to get close to JonBenet who couldn't do it otherwise, have power over her, and get by with it all by framing her folks.
     
  15. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I think her hair was restyled not just b/c of the head wound, but b/c there was probably a scuffle bet. JB and her killer,and her hair was messed up..thus the hair ties scattered around her room.Possibly PR was trying to dye it that night, as it was said JB had another pagent coming up in Jan.As well as they wanted it to appear to be a bedside abduction..so her hair wouldn't have been very tusseled from that.
    I think that's why the pics from the White's havent been released..it seems anything incriminitating isn't being released(like the enhanced 911 part of the tape).I suspect JB's hair was redone later,and she wore the red shirt,not the white one she was found dead in.And who would do that or have time to do that...not an intruder.
    As far as the red shirt being found on the bathroom counter,I think she was manually strangled with it by the perp twisting the collar,and the 2 abrasions on her face came from diamond rings, as previously speculated.
    I think JR lied when he said PR and JB got into an argument over which shirt to wear that evening...I think he said that to account for the red shirt being balled up on the counter.But I think JB had the red shirt on at some point that evening,like PR originally said,and it was changed after her death.I hope I'm not getting too far off subject for this thread,but any thoughts on that?
     
  16. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    I don't know why the red shirt was balled up, and I think wet, right?

    About the hair, I don't think PR was coloring it that night because (1) An odor would linger on the hair, (2) She may have wanted JBR to look very blonde for meeting Melinda's new boyfriend for the first time, but would know there would be a strong smell he'd notice, I think, and there was plenty of time before the next pageant.

    In another thread, someone posted that serial killer Ted Bundy did a shampoo on at least one of his victims after her death, styled her hair. Maybe it's just a power thing.
     
  17. Nuisanceposter

    Nuisanceposter Remembering Little Miss Christmas

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    Police noticed a strong chemical smell, like peroxide, in the vicinity of JonBenet's bathroom. I definitely think it's possible that JonBenet's hair was sectioned off the way it was (in ponytails) in preparation for coloring. I can see brown roots in her hair in the autopsy pictures, and I believe Patsy would have kept JonBenet up at night to dye her hair right before they left for Michigan and the cruise. The next pageant was to be held right after they got back from the cruise - Patsy was already laying out clothes to be ready for it. Patsy had just dyed her own hair, so I can see her thinking about dying JB's too. Maybe that last time JonBenet was tired and uncooperative.
     
  18. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    Good points,NP.Possibly the red shirt was taken off to dye her hair,and the scattered hair ties in her room indicate a struggle bet. PR and JB,from her being tired and not wanting to get her hair dyed that night.
    The only other explanation I can think of for the ammonia smell is using it to clean and cover up evidence of some sort.
     
  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    JMO8778,

    You could be right, but her skull fracture was not visible, not even to Coroner Meyer until he did an internal.

    It seems such a late time of the day to start coloring hair, seems it would have been better if JonBenet had had it retouched earlier in the day, ready for the White's party.

    Scuffle? Possibly although this slightly changes the sequence of events from a rage/accidental death to a prolonged attack.


    Well the pictures taken at the Whites might tell us if she is wearing hair-ties and what color, and where they are placed? In a court room any difference may confirm crime-scene staging.


    Or she was wearing it as part of the initial staging, which after being revised and relocated to the basement, it was decided to redress her in her White party gap top? It was possibly ran under the tap, and wrung out, left lying on the counter, forgotten, alike the pineapple bowl?

    JonBenet may have been naked when killed, and her redressing, hair restyling etc could be an attempt to make her appearance as close to how she appeared at the Whites? Otherwise everyone saying Hey we all went to bed, and when we woke up JonBenet was gone would not make sense if JonBenet was undressed, her lack of socks has always been a mystery to me, e.g. underwear yes, longjohns yes, gap top yes, even a spare barbie gown, but socks nope, just bare feet!



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  20. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    Sounds very plausible. I didn't remember that police had smelled peroxide.
    Yes, that just about has to be what happened.

    Re bare feet, UKGuy, ST said she had lint on her feet. Maybe from her socks, if not from walking around a probably-cluttered laundry room in the bsmt. Maybe she took her socks off because they itched or something.
     

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