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Forensic linguistics as investigative tool on RN

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by voynich, Sep 8, 2009.

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Do you accept forensic linguists as defined below as a valid investigation tool

  1. I'm RDI - I do accept forensic linguistics regarding RN

    50.0%
  2. I'm RDI forensic linguistics which does not agree with RDI is not science

    16.7%
  3. Im IDI - I do accept forensic linguistics regarding RN

    33.3%
  4. Im IDI forensic linguistics which does not agree with RDI is not science

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    read this and then vote. While many topics are addressed in the science of linguistics, of particular relevance to this forum is forensic linguistics as applied to PR authorship of the RN, which I underlined.

    The first questions I am presented with on direct examination are always to describe and explain what I do. This requires a series of brief and clear responses defining the theory and the nested array of analytical tools used in cases of questioned authorship: language, linguistics, linguistic variation, forensic linguistics, style, stylistics, and forensic stylistics.
    Consequently, I have used these questions to define the aims and struc- ture of this book: to provide an introduction to language, linguistics, and linguistic variation for nonlinguists (e.g., attorneys) who need to understand what linguist-witnesses do; to introduce the discipline of forensic linguistics; and to situate forensic stylistics as a field of language study and forensic analysis within the discipline of forensic linguistics. Chapters 1 through 6 will approximate this sequence.
    Although the linguistic study of language is well established, linguistics is something new for many jurors, judges, attorneys, and other forensic specialists. In addition, many linguists must learn how to talk about what they do in nontechnical terms, something accomplished to some degree here, I hope.
    Forensic linguistics is not a new field, but over the past few years it has become more structured and better defined within the academic and forensic communities. Is it the accused killer’s voice on the 911 recording reporting the crime? What exactly does it mean to die by accident, e.g., is sudden infant death an accident? Is it a request for drugs if a kid asks an undercover police officer, “What’s chillin?” Does it make any sense to say that someone did not commit genocide, just acts of genocide (The New York Times, August 26,
    2001)? Who did, or did not, write that ransom note found in the JonBenét Ramsey home? If a detective asks a suspect, “… do you want to speak with us about why you were arrested?” is the suspect waiving his right not to speak by answering, “Yes, I would like to know why I was arrested”? Does McDonald’s own the Mc at the beginning of my last name (Liptak, 2001:10)?
    These examples illustrate a few of the questions for forensic linguistics: phonetics (911 call), semantics (meaning of accident), pragmatics (intended meanings of “What’s chillin’?” and genocide), stylistics (authorship of the ransom note), discourse analysis (suspect waiver of rights), and trademarks (McDonald’s Mc).

    An understanding of language, linguistics, and the field of forensic lin- guistics will enable the reader to develop a more informed understanding of recent advances in the theory and method of forensic stylistics for authorship identification. Style is a reflection of individual and group variation in written language. Linguistic stylistics is the scientific study of individual style-mark- ers as described for the idiolect of a single writer and of class style-markers identified for language and dialect groups. Forensic stylistics is the applica- tion of the science of linguistic stylistics to forensic contexts and purposes. “Advances” in forensic stylistics refers to the progressive development of
    a deeper understanding of why and how present approaches work, as well as changes being made in the application of style analysis to cases of questioned authorship.
    Such advances have several sources: recent casework, new federal requirements for scientific evidence in the U.S., reexamination of the theory of style and its application to the forensic context, and critical response to documented approaches such as those presented in Forensic Stylistics (McMe- namin, 1993). Advances in forensic stylistics are the matter of Chapters 7 to
    11. Chapters 12 to 15 reflect new work in the stylistics of languages other than English.​
    McM

    And hence,
    Is there any RDI that is willing to accept Forensic linguistics as a science and as a valid and legitimate forensic investigative tool?
     
  2. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    All right, I'll speak up first.

    1) I haven't voted (at least not yet) because I'm not too keen on the way the choices are phrased. Maybe I'm just oversensitive.

    2) To a layman like myself, the excerpt you post seems to go on and on without really saying anything.

    3) Perhaps most importantly, in my opinion the questions "is forensic linguistics a science" and "is forensic linguistics a good investigative tool" are separate issues. While I'm iffy (and that's being very generous) as to the scientific validity of forensic linguistics, and as such not willing to go to court with it, I imagine that it can have its uses, maybe even going so far as to go to a Grand Jury with it.

    WHICH brings me to:

    4) Speaking purely for myself, I'd like to clear something up. There seems (and it's possible I'm wrong here) to be this perception that I'm somehow upholding Foster's conclusion and that I'm some kind of mark who has been taken in by a hustler. That's not it at ALL. The issue is that it doesn't matter whether I was taken in; it matters that Alex Hunter was taken in. He was in Foster's corner 100%...until he got the one answer he didn't want!. That's MY issue.
     
  3. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I'd also like to see another choice or 2.
    Maybe "I'm RDI and I feel linguistics are of little value in this case".
    Can also apply to IDI.
     
  4. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Did you read "Gerald R McMenamin - Forensic Linguistics Advances In Forensic Stylistics" in its entirety and if so, what makes you so sure it is of little value?

    thanks
     
  5. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Brave you boy, I thought you'd learn your lesson by now.


    An understanding of language, linguistics, and the field of forensic lin- guistics will enable the reader to develop a more informed understanding of recent advances in the theory and method of forensic stylistics for authorship identification.

    “Advances” in forensic stylistics refers to the progressive development of
    a deeper understanding of why and how present approaches work, as well as changes being made in the application of style analysis to cases of questioned authorship.

    Who did, or did not, write that ransom note found in the JonBenét Ramsey home? ​


    Good scientifically based investigative tool.

    Makes no difference to me what Alex Hunter thinks. What matters is the science behind Forensic linguistics and its conclusion re: PR authorship of the RN

    If I recall correctly you saw McM on CourtTV? What'd you think? By 2001, he's testified in court under oath as an expert on authorship on over 270 some civil and criminal cases.
     
  6. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I am not saying it has little value- I am saying in THIS case, it has little value to ME. I see enough similarities in Patsy's handwriting and her style of writing (right down to the periods between letters in an acronym :S.B.T.C.
    She was well known to do this.) to have no doubt that she wrote this note. I think we can argue linguistics for years (as has been done with this) and all it does is try to apply formulas to show that someone else could have written it. I look at the handwriting. I know who wrote it.
     
  7. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    I understand that it has little value to you personally, to each their own I say, but for those interested in ascertaining the TRUTH of what happened that night, it certainly has much value.

    Perhaps 50% of the population if handed a blunt Sharpie could write out an RN that would have "similarities" to both PR and the RN.
     
  8. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    I AM a slow learner...

    I guess that would be the thing to do.

    Like I said: I wouldn't write it off completely.

    I get you, voynich. But I'm not sure you get me. My point there was not linguistics itself. My point was that Hunter did not do his due diligence. He was ready to back Foster to the hilt, as long as he named someone OTHER than PR. When he came back with the "wrong" answer, Hunter didn't just drop him; he actively tried to ruin him as well.

    So, wouldn't you say that Hunter was, at best, ignorant of the science behind forensic linguistics? And if so, what does that tell you?

    You recall superbly. This would have been around summer 2002 that I saw him on CourtTV. The program had nothing to do with this case, btw. As for what I thought, I think an explanation is in order. When I tuned in, the only thing I knew about linguistics was from this case. That is to say, I thought that linguistics was what Foster did: getting into someone's head to understand their writing style, the use of certain words, phrases, etc. The narrator explained that linguistics is based on the idea that people write the way they speak, and that the linguistic analyst will work from that premise...in other words, psycholinguistics, just like Foster does/did. Not only did McM NOT disagree with that, the example he used was of a dead girl who had left a "suicide" note which the police did not believe was written by the dead girl at all. Problem was, her handwriting matched the note exactly. McM was called in. He analyzed the note and found that the mother had dictated the note and the girl had written the dictation down under duress. The way the program was presented, it seemed like McM was using psycholinguistics. Since I didn't know anything else about the man, my first thought was "wow, why don't they bring THIS guy in to analyze the note? They kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater when they dumped Foster."

    But since then, I've found that McM and guys like him regard psycholinguistics as little more than tarot card reading (or at least that Foster had no idea what he was doing). Pardon my saying so, but it seems that we have a failure to communicate! McM doesn't seem to know WHAT he's saying at a given time.
     
  9. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    The RDIs are alerted to our presence. He is as clumsy as he is stupid. You have failed me for the last time, Hunter. You are in command now, Admiral Dave.
     
  10. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    You SAID it!

    Don't I WISH!
     
  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    If that were true, wouldn't half the people tested have shown such similarities? And what's with this quotation marks business?
     
  12. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Seriously? Do you know what the last words you hear are?
     
  13. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    "Are you dead yet?"
     
  14. passionflower

    passionflower Just 1 tip to find a killer

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    okay dumb blonde here what is IDI and RDI????
     
  15. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    Blondness not make one dumb.

    RDI - Ramsey Did It. (Variations are PDI - Patsy Did It, BR - Burke Did It
    JR - John Did it)

    IDI - Intruder Did It
     
  16. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    Exactly my case.Because the RN wasn't written to make sense or to deliver any messages.moo
     
  17. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    Did you read Gerald R McMenamin - Forensic Linguistics Advances In Forensic Stylistics in its entirety? Does forensic linguistics need a note to make sense or deliver any message for the purpose of a valid exclusion or inclusion authorship identification?

    thanks
     
  18. Ravyn

    Ravyn New Member

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    Why,are you trying to sell this guy is because he says PR didn't write the RN cause one against others than says she did...Or the way he does it...Cause in the end if anyone wanted to he could be knocked down like the others....
     
  19. voynich

    voynich Former Member

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    If there's something fundamentally wrong with his conclusion I'd like to hear what it is.
     
  20. Ravyn

    Ravyn New Member

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    I was asking why you was so into this..Trying to understand your point of view...
     

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