France - 5 shot, 4 dead in French Alps, may have int'l ramifications, 2012 #2

Discussion in 'Rampage Killings and Terrorist Attacks' started by Drella, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. Snoopster

    Snoopster Well-Known Member

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    Did the British cyclist see the al-Hilli vehicle drive by? What if the shooter was already up there in advance of the family? What if the British cyclist was the shooter? What if the British cylist knew the shooter? What if Said al-Hilli had agreed to meet someone there? What if the French cyclist agreed to meet someone there? So many questions.
     


  2. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    You can go on with what if till you see blue in the face.

    Fact: the British cyclist was never mentioned as a person of interest, never as a suspect.

    Can you please mention your source for the following:

    BBM
     
  3. Ellmau

    Ellmau Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps checking all the timings and what witnesses would actually have been able to see/hear?

    Interesting, anyway.
     
  4. Ellmau

    Ellmau Well-Known Member

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    In terms of the potential links with the Marie-Helene Dini case: French businessman is alleged leader of hit squad investigated over shooting of British family in the Alps | UK News | Sky News

    This is interesting:

     
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  5. Snoopster

    Snoopster Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the British cyclist: yes, I know he has never been mentioned as such. And I highly doubt he's involved. My point was that we are no closer to solving as there are so many possibilities. That's why I highlighted examples of only some of the many possibilities. Honestly I should go back and refresh my memory on some of the finer details of the case, since it's been a few years since I've been actively following it.

    Regarding my source for my fears of political interference...that is all it is...my fears. It's not stated as a fact. I presume there are at least jurisdictional obstacles because of all of the international connections. It does seem that the French finally did allow the British more input into the case and shared more information.

    You said we can go on with what if until we are blue in the face, but isn't that what Websleuths is all about? Everyone batting around ideas?
     
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  6. Ched

    Ched Well-Known Member

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  7. crazychris

    crazychris Well-Known Member

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    What if the British cyclist was the intended victim and Mollier was mistaken for him and the Al Hillier's were collateral damage?

    As no-one supposedly knew where any of them would be that day I go with a random massacre by a deranged person.
     
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  8. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    I came face-to-face with Alps killer… I could've been his 5th victim

    [ Brett Martin ] describes bumping into welder Mollier at a T-junction below the forest road just after 3pm, then being overtaken by the al-Hillis’ maroon BMW estate.

    Brett next saw the first suspicious vehicle — believed to be a dark grey BMW SUV, which police are still trying to trace — descending the hill, He recalled: “Mollier came up the main road on a racing bike. We coincided at the intersection and I turned right immediately behind him.

    “I tried to keep up but his pace was much faster, so I eased off and he was out of sight within three or four minutes. About halfway up the hill, a 4x4 type of vehicle passed me at about 20 or 30mph.


    It was at around 3.45pm that Brett had the menacing encounter with the motor–cyclist, and moments later he was confronted by the murder scene.

    Yesterday we told how French cops now believe Mollier, 45, was likely to have been the intended victim and the British family were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.


    Brett, 62, said: “In hindsight I realise I could have been the fifth victim.

    “About 200 or 300 metres from the scene, a motorcycle came very slowly past me. It was a black-clad motorcyclist in a full-face helmet and a Trans Alpine style of bike. I couldn’t see their face and couldn’t even say if they were male or female.

    “When they slowed right down, I thought they were going to stop and talk to me, but then they seemed to change their mind.

    “When you reflect, you think, that’s interesting, because at the very least, he or she would have passed the murder scene.

    “I nickname it my ‘luckiest unlucky day’. I think that if the trigger person had had a few more clips of ammunition, I wouldn’t be here.”


    BBM


    This is getting confusing. The Sun has added the picture of the motorist with the goatee - that man has been identified and has nothing to do with the crime. So was this the same person / motorist or someone else?

    I still am not convinced that Mollier was the intended victim. Brett Martin describes how he and Mollier were overtaken by the Al-Hilli car. It follows that the family arrived at the parking area of les Martinets first.
    If someone was waiting there for Mollier, he would no doubt have noticed them. The parking area is small and narrow. A car full of possible witnesses. Maybe wait for a better opportunity.
    Also, the alleged perp had no way of knowing that Mollier was coming up that hill at that time. There is no network in that area, Brett Martin had to go downhill to alert the police. So how would anyone inform the shooter?
    Then, the cyclist. All cyclists look more or less alike. You got to know a lot about bikes to recognize them, even more to recognize them up front, they do not have licence plates. A person cycling up a hill, at great speed, will bend over their handle bars. You cannot see their face, nor their clothes. IMO it could have been anyone coming up that hill.

    Mollier and his background were investigated deeply at the time:

    Is the Slain Cyclist the Key to the Perfect Murders in the Alps? Part Three

    Maillaud [ the first Prosecutor on the case ] hasn’t been able to read everything published about l’affaire de Chevaline, but he’s aware of the basic theory: that Claire Schutz’s family had Mollier whacked for being a lout, and the al-Hilli family simply got in the way. Maillaud listens as it is explained again; then he shakes his head. This was investigated and dismissed long ago, he says. Claire was not yet a millionaire, on paper or otherwise, he says. She was buying the pharmacy from her father, albeit with a no-interest loan, and Mollier had no current or potential legal interest in it because the two were not married. And again, who massacres strangers over a theoretical future financial entanglement?


    BBM
     
  9. Ellmau

    Ellmau Well-Known Member

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    The Sun's source alleges
    Re the new suspects, this is interesting:

     
  10. TootsieFootsie

    TootsieFootsie Well-Known Member

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  11. crazychris

    crazychris Well-Known Member

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    What to me seems significant is that the Al Hillis weren't followed according to police checking CCTV and nobody going knew they were going that route. The brother seemingly didn't know they were even in France. They hadn't spoken for a year. However someone knew Mollier would go there that day as his father-in-law told him to try it as a new cycling route.
     
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  12. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    I have been checking French sources and not one source sofar mentions that this route was new to him.

    Sylvain, père aimant et passionné de vélo

    "He is a local boy. He has always lived here," Michel Chevallier, deputy mayor of Ugine, sums up. He had to announce the terrible news to Sylvain Mollier's partner, a pharmacist in a neighbouring community.

    "Sylvain used to cycle in summer and ski in winter. He often went on loops around Lake Annecy and liked to ski down the slopes in the nearby resorts of Les Saisies or Crest-Voland", Michel Chevallier recalls. This "cycling enthusiast", whose mother lives in a retirement home, is described as a "shy" man, "not very outgoing" and "devoting all his energy to his family". Although Sylvain Mollier was not a member of the Ugine Cycling Club, the club president, Michel Perrier, knew him as "a good amateur". Two or three times a week, Sylvain would get out his shorts to ride his bike.

    BBM

    IMO we have to take the idea that the Schutz family suggested a new route to him with quite a few grains of salt. He was 45 years of age, he wasn't new to the area, he wasn't new to cycling. No wonder Brett Martin saw him go up very rapidly.

    [ Tuerie de Chevaline ] La piste Sylvain Mollier "fermée à 99,9%"

    The French cyclist whose body was found lying next to the car of the al-Hilli family was there by "mistake". "He took a wrong turn and was going the wrong way. He arrived at the scene purely by mistake," Mr Maillaud told Agence France Presse.


    BBM

    Apparently, he was planning to take a route near Doussard, but originally the Combe d'Ire was not part of it.
     
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  13. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    In 2015, journalist Emilie Blachère wrote a detailed report for Paris Match. Most attention is paid to the Al-Hilli family, but there are a few interesting points about the French cyclist Sylvain Mollier:

    Cinq ans après la tuerie de Chevaline, le mystère reste entier


    Until then, nothing seems to destine them to cross the path of Sylvain Mollier. And especially not to die with him. Sylvain Mollier lives in Ugine, about thirty kilometres away. He is 45 years of age and has the athletic physique of a sportsman addicted to cycling and rugby. "A handsome, smiling, discreet guy with no problems," his friends say. A wonderful father, very close to his three children: Mathis, 13, Léo, 10, and Louis, the baby he has just had with his second partner, Claire, 29, a pretty blonde, the pharmacist of Grignon. The business is prosperous but the days are long. And Sylvain, a metal worker, has decided that he should be the one to take time off to look after the baby. For twenty years, he has worked for Cezus, a subsidiary of the Areva group specialising in the transformation of metals for the manufacture of nuclear fuels.

    On 5 September, Claire left work early so that Sylvain could ride his bike. He put on his flashy climbing outfit, kissed his girlfriend one last time and, at around 2.40 pm, set off along the road to Annecy. He started by riding along the departmental road before entering the road to Doussard, a pretty little village. The Al-Hilli family had already had time to take photos, and then they ventured onto the state-owned forest road of the Combe d'Ire. A steep slope with potholes for 3 kilometres. Sylvain Mollier also tackled it. By chance, no doubt, but there are so many chances in this story that it is a word that one hardly dares write. Lydie, his ex-wife, calls him at 3.32 p.m. "I'll finish the climb, I'll call you back," he replies, still out of breath. He will never do it. Three minutes later, in the Le Martinet car park, at an altitude of 780 metres, gunshots sounded for less than two minutes. Twenty-one bullets were fired at point-blank range from a Swiss-made 1906/29 Luger - a collector's item that is almost untraceable - and 7.65 parabellum calibre, a rare ammunition, renowned for its accuracy and the low recoil it produces. No clues were found. If the killer is a solitary madman, he was diabolically cold-blooded. If he works in a team, he was able to rely on professionals to clean up the crime scene. Today, we don't even know who he shot first. This is essential information. We don't know his exact target.


    BBM
     
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  14. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    I guess there is an expectation that someone who kills random people is a serial killer and will do it again. But is that necessarily true? Why not someone does it once, commits the 'perfect crime' and then decides not to repeat it, or at least not the same MO

    ETA posted too soon and had to edit
     
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  15. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    That is an interesting thought. Indeed, it needn't be true at all, but French LE has to investigate due to the similarities. Same type of weapon, same MO. But no DNA and (almost) no witnesses.

    The person who did this, is alternately described as a pro and a madman. Emilie Blachère writes:

    If the killer is a solitary madman, he was diabolically cold-blooded.

    He could be both, of course. A solitary madman, a cold-blooded person, who joined a gang, or who was perhaps hired by them every now and then. As the story changes, the profile of the killer changes too.

    I still find it hard to imagine the killer as a pro, even more so if he was hired to kill the French cyclist. Surely he could have waited for a better opportunity without having to murder an entire family? Also, he was lucky, because if the Al-Hilli car hadn't gotten stuck, the family would have made it out of danger - straight into the witness box so to speak.
     
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  16. TootsieFootsie

    TootsieFootsie Well-Known Member

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    If the person's aim was to kill one particular person and it did result in the death of that person, then it's very likely they may not have killed before or since.
     
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  17. ZaZara

    ZaZara AstraZaZara

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    But he killed four!

    If the cyclist was the target and if the pharmacist family ordered it, how do they live with the knowledge that they also caused the death of a family? They'd be looking over their shoulders everyday in case the shooter came after them too.

    IMO the pharmacist family had nothing to do with it. They may or may not have liked 'the cyclist' but in fact he was a gift from heaven so to speak.
    I live in a small provincial town, and I've seen it happen times over. A family has a prosperous business, the daughter is supposed to take over, and when the time comes, she declines, because it is too much work, and she also has (or wants) her young family to take care of.

    Emilie Blachère writes:

    ..... a wonderful father, very close to his three children: Mathis, 13, Léo, 10, and Louis, the baby he has just had with his second partner, Claire, 29, a pretty blonde, the pharmacist of Grignon. The business is prosperous but the days are long. And Sylvain, a metal worker, has decided that he should be the one to take time off to look after the baby.

    While the Sun and other British newsoutlets describe Sylvain Mollier as someone who is living off his girlfriend, he was, in fact, a feminist. Taking time off from work, allowing his partner to pursue her career. He is a lot older than she is, he has been round the block and does not need to rush up the career ladder.

    For Claire, who is nearing 30 and wants a family and take over the pharmacy, this is a much better situation than remaing single, or being married to someone with another busy and demanding job. Claire can have her children plus the pharmacy.

    No wonder she got him that bike.
     
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  18. TootsieFootsie

    TootsieFootsie Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps one of the four was who he planned to kill.

     
  19. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    True, but as others have pointed out, it's very unlikely, if not impossible, that someone could have been lying in wait at that particular location, for those particular victims.

    We know for sure the person must have killed at least one/some of the victims randomly, since he can't have been targetting both the family and the cyclist.

    So it is a very short leap for me to conclude the whole massacre was probably random.

    In most cases, an assassin doesn't kill everyone at the scene, including female relatives and potentially a small child if he hadn't run out of ammunition.

    I think the victims were chosen randomly, they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think it would be classified as a variation on a 'rampage killing'.
     
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  20. crazychris

    crazychris Well-Known Member

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    I did read somewhere that it's not a busy road at all. You can have 2 or 3 vehicles and/or cyclists pass through near together then nothing for an hour or two. So anyone waiting could have quite a long wait.
     

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