"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand?

[Phumi]

Here is a quote from "Ask Dr. Baden" on an HBO site.

"The hyoid bone is a little U-shaped bone just on top of the Adam's Apple. The Adam's Apple is thyroid cartilage and it forms the big part of the larynx. As we get older, our cartilage and the hyoid bone get calcified and manual strangulation is more likely to cause a hyoid fracture. When we're teenagers, both of these structures are very pliable -- like gristle -- and if a young person or child is strangled, they may not suffer a fracture of any of the bones of the neck. But above approximately forty years of age, the majority of manual strangulation cases will show significant trauma to the neck: hemorrhages around the windpipe and fractures of the hyoid bone or thyroid cartilage. Below age forty, when the those structures are not yet calcified, it's less than fifty percent of manual strangulations in which hyoid fractures occur"

 

[Chezhire]

SNIPPED: "... and to Caseys Lawyers:
I know everybody deserves thier day in court......Casey stole money from her family and friends, how is she paying you? how do you sleep at night? you all have to be pretty intelligent right? all the schooling you have had, the training etc.....how do you live with yourselves knowing your huggining and holding onto the devil in disguise? you all make me sick! trying to protect a woman (little girl) how killed her baby daughter, a little baby who has no chance at life, no chance to live a full life, Casey took that from her, she took that baby from everybody who loved her.....shame shame, I hope you all see Casey in Hell when its time!..."

Her attorneys will sleep at night because everyone has a Constitutionally protected right to counsel before facing charges against them - someone's got to do it. It's the way our country's system of justice was set up many years ago. Though I don't envy Casey's lawyers, nor have I found a whole lot to complement them on, I do have to say that I find it very sad that anyone would wish that Casey's lawyers also go to hell.

 

[Chezhire]

I vote "other/undecided"!
To me, the tape on the mouth shows that Caylee was murdered, but I'm certainly not sure yet that KC is the murderer. Too many other people were not ruled out, cadaver dogs never taken to the players' homes, vehicles, places of interest, etc. There's also the possibility that the murderer was a stranger. All we know is that either Caylee's body or items that had been in contact with her (deceased) body were placed in the Pontiac trunk and possibly the Anthony backyard. KC is not the only person who had access to Caylee, the trunk, or the Anthony home and backyard.
Why did KC fail to report Caylee missing, that's the question, and why would she still not tell who killed Caylee all this time if she is innocent? Some possibilities: she's guilty, she was involved, she was coerced, she suffers from mental illness, she was drugged or on drugs and doesn't know what happened, or, she was convinced that Caylee was safe during the time she was missing (i.e. believed Caylee was with a friend or something along those lines, maybe as part of a scam she and they were trying to pull.)
Questions that remain: Why did friends who were with KC 24/7 not notice any smell if there was a body in her trunk or her car was reeking of decomposition? (No matter where she parked it in their apartment complex, someone would notice.) How could she drive a car if its trunk was "saturated with chloroform"? Also, if KC were the murderer, or knew Caylee's body was in the trunk of her car, why would she keep it there for days and drive around with it in there? Why would she dispose of the body so near her family home rather in any of a million better places? Why would she leave the tape on the mouth? Why would she put a bunch of items with Caylee's body and leave matching items in her home? Why would she stay in town instead of just leaving and telling her family she had Caylee with her and was starting a new life? What about the scams/frauds related to some of KC's friends in her cell phone (see FrankM thread, car parts scam, etc)? Could they be related in any way? What about the m.r. and other guy (see Keith W thread especially) who were hanging around in the woods near the remains site before the discovery of the body?
What motive could KC have to kill Caylee when there was no history whatsoever of violence or a bad attachment between KC and Caylee? All friends who'd known her throughout Caylee's life said that KC would never harm Caylee or let her be lost and not report her missing. KC had maintained her partying lifestyle throughout Caylee's life, Caylee had been healthy and perfectly fine all that time, right up to June 15. KC knew she could easily let her parents take Caylee if she really wanted to be rid of her motherly responsibilities full time. So what happened in June 08 that resulted in Caylee's death?
Who would have a strong enough motive to murder a small child? A mentally ill person? Someone who molested the child? Children of all ages have certainly been killed in gang retribution crimes. Or did this young mother just have the onset of mental illness or a radical personality change and suddenly murder her child for no reason? Kill her rather than simply dropping her off with family if she wanted to be a free bird?
If KC is a calculating murderer, why didn't she fake like she was worried after the disappearance? Why didn't she report it as a kidnapping at the time? After her arrest, why the strange stories to LE that would be disproved immediately? Why not tell plausible stories to help her own defense such as a complete stranger took Caylee, I didn't get a good look or the tag number? And again, why not put on an a big act of being terrified and griefstricken?
I don't put too much in the computer searches because anybody who watches crime and forensics TV programs might wikipedia or google any of the things KC did. Also, "breakin necks" is a truck club that some of her friends belong to, if she had googled on that club name, the other related items might easily come up. Also, the macabre images on KC's photobucket are (sadly) similar to those on thousands of young people's webpages, her friends had the same kind of images. I think many innocent things might have been twisted into something else in the coverage of this case. That said, I agree with others that the case is very hard to comprehend, I certainly can't rule KC out. I'm having to suspend judgment until the trial. Innocent until proven guilty. I really hope the truth is found for Caylee. My gut feeling is that KC might be convicted mainly due to her failure to report the child missing and her so-called "partying" during the disappearance, but that we will never know what actually happened. Thanks for the thread!

seagull65 - my answer, in summation, to all of your questions, is because Casey is not too bright and her achilles' heel is that she thinks she is smarter than everyone else. She planned to do it - and then she did it. Who the heck would, for starters, and in chronological order, take LE to a place of business, strut in, flash an old security/employee badge, and really think that they'd believe her when she said she worked there?!?!? :doh:

 

[MiraclesHappen]

I always thought this thread was a debate - Greta v. Nancy Grace.

Man I need some sleep !

It's not?

Your post is truly beyond hilarious. :blowkiss: :biglaugh:


Oh, almost forgot, murder one, either premed or by aggravated abuse.

 

[Number18]

I vote guilty.
I posted yesterday & can't find my post but here goes again - I am asking this because it points to pre-meditation--- in the mass of evidence there is a file called "deleted myspace entries" in which someone asserts that Casey had opened her myspace acct called "Caylee is missing" in 2006. Is this true? Has it been discussed? I see Casey as someone whose personality had slowly disintegrated and then split - thus, the "nanny" as her "bad" ego.... but I believe that she was planning it for a long time.. anyway, does anyone know anything about the myspace file?

 

[JTennisonFL]

I have yet to see any evidence that would convince me (if I were a juror) that KC is guilty of the actual charges laid against her, i.e. 1st degree murder or aggravated manslaughter. Until I do, I will reserve judgement.

One thing I am sure of, is that it is a good job that civilised societies such as ours have a legal system that affords a presumption of innocence and a right to a fair trial. The lynch mob mentality I have witnessed on various blogs and forums (including this one) is truly frightening, IMO!

I do not deny for one minute that any unnecessary loss of life is a tragedy, particularly when it is an innocent child, but I am still appalled at the sheer number of people who appear to have already decided KC is deserving of the death penalty before she has been proven guilty of any crime that would warrant it!

If she has wilfully or recklessly caused the death of her child then she will deserve the punishment she receives. At the moment however, she is, and should be, presumed innocent of those acts.

Ok, can we all agree, that we have TWO streams of discussion here: #1: I am a juror and I can only view (or comment on) factual evidence , #2: I am on a true crime discussion board and I can have opinions, views, suppositions, irritaions, rants, etc.

We can all jump back and forth between these discussions as the need arises. Commenting with emotion on one element doesn't mean we can't then view another element with reason. I think most of us here could separate our emotions from the serious business of fact-finding if we found ourselves on a jury. No lynch mob here. Venting is NOT lynching.

 

[JTennisonFL]

Forgot to say: Guilty:crazy:

 

[Cookie278]

Another thing to keep in mind, is that not all of what we see and hear will be entered into evidence. We have all seen cases where what we felt was MAJOR evidence never made it to the witness stand. I would hope that the jury would base its verdict ONLY on what is presented to them. Having said that, I am not on the jury and have access to info they will never see, so I know my opinion of guilt and the reasons for it may or may not agree with the jury. And that is the way it should be. I respect that.

 

[seagull65]

seagull65 - my answer, in summation, to all of your questions, is because Casey is not too bright and her achilles' heel is that she thinks she is smarter than everyone else. She planned to do it - and then she did it. Who the heck would, for starters, and in chronological order, take LE to a place of business, strut in, flash an old security/employee badge, and really think that they'd believe her when she said she worked there?!?!? :doh:

Some of her friends that she's known for years mentioned on this board that she is quite intelligent, they rated her highly intelligent.
In answer to why would someone take LE to Universal, etc (tell the strange stories to LE that could be disproved immediately, etc)...exactly. That serves no strategic purpose for KC. Why would a calculating murderer do that when it would only make them look guilty? It doesn't make sense.

Sounds more like confusion/ possible mental illness, maybe just delirium from lack of sleep for weeks or using who knows what substances or some other cause, or trying to give fellow scamster friends a chance to cover tracks or whatever.

 

[seagull65]

For me the answers here are quite obvious.
Seagull: Well you raised a bunch of good points that I can't resist answering, also! My answers appear after yours in dark print.

I don't think it would take even one day in Florida in June for a body to begin to noticeably smell . Makes no difference what the body is in. Even for a small dead squirrel much less a body of human size.

Chloroform came later as a result of a cleaning attempt.
Seagull: I agree, I think someone attempted a cleaning in the trunk, unless someone was trying to off KC and Caylee by pouring it in KC's trunk. I used to think maybe an accidental spill of chloroform in the trunk that was intended for use in drug making, possibly resulting in Caylee's death as she rode in the back seat. But the tape on Caylee's mouth negated that theory for me.

-- Also, if KC were the murderer, or knew Caylee's body was in the trunk of her car, why would she keep it there for days and drive around with it in there?She had no idea where to put the body. Also she probably was not aware of the process of decomposition and believed she had more time.
Seagull: Isn't a more likely explanation that she didn't know Caylee's body was in her trunk? I just can't see any sane person driving around in June in Florida with a body in their car trunk if they were the murderer. They'd dispose of it immediately, someplace it wouldn't be found, or someplace to incriminate someone else, not next to a street in their own neighborhood. Now, that's a sane person I'm talking about, mentall illness could make a person do something like that. And, why would she allow her car to run out of gas during that time frame, so that others had to come help her? Why would she leave her car parked so visibly in front of Amscot, it's a very visible spot? etc. Why not torch the car?

Why would she dispose of the body so near her family home rather in any of a million better places? Studies by FBI profilers have shown that parents who kill, usually dispose of the child's body within 3 miles of the home. The placement of Caylee actually points MORE to KC's guilt than her innocence. Seagull: I'm not sure that isn't a myth. I wonder if it's another of these circular arguments we keep seeing in this case, i.e. we've convicted other people based on the fact that the body was near their home, so let's use that as a basis to convict more people when a body is found near their home. If the body being near the home is an indicator of guilt, then they should have taken the cadaver dogs into every home in the neighborhood to find out who killed Caylee. (Not a bad idea if you ask me!)

Why would she leave the tape on the mouth? So she could claim it was a kidnapping. Or she just didn't consider that Caylee would be found. Seagull: Right by the street near the houses and school? A matter of feet away from the last backyard on the street? I think whoever placed Caylee's body there knew it would be found. It almost seems like a hate crime or gang crime against KC in some way, the dumping of the body like trash right there. I can't believe KC would leave the tape on the mouth, and leave the child in trash bags, to incriminate herself. She would try to make it look more innocent and accidental.

Why would she put a bunch of items with Caylee's body and leave matching items in her home?Zanny did it. She made certain to mention that the imaginary nanny had duplicate items of Caylee's things AND a key to the house. Seagull: I don't know, why create that whole complication? If KC's the murderer, why put the body there at all, why use things from the house at all, why also leave the matching items in the house rather than getting rid of them.

Why would she stay in town instead of just leaving and telling her family she had Caylee with her and was starting a new life? She had NO CAR and NO MONEY!! Kinda hard to disappear under these circumstances.

Seagull: I bet she could have managed it one way or another, borrowed or taken enough money for a bus ticket to somewhere. But I don't think she would ever want to. That's part of the reason I don't think she would murder someone to be honest, she wouldn't want to have her social life disrupted!

Why would she have murdered in the first place, unless she suffers from serious mental illness, because she would know that all these problems would result. She would have to leave her social life and go off on her own, live on the run, etc. I don't think she'd want to do that and I definitely don't think she'd want to spend her life in prison. If she wanted out of her responsibilities I think she'd take the easy way and let her mother have either official or unofficial custody. I have trouble making the stretch to her killing Caylee at all much less premeditated. I can't rule her out but I think it's possible that someone who was around her may have harmed Caylee. She seems to be involved in something though, because she didn't report Caylee missing. Either she knew but was covering up for someone initially or thought they would kill her, too. Or, she didn't know Caylee was going to be harmed then, and still doesn't know exactly what happened or who did it. I'm still not sure. Great points you raise.

I think if she killed Caylee, she probably suffers from a serious mental illness, i.e. wasn't aware what she was doing, didn't remember she had the body in the trunk, etc, because I don't think she would knowingly jeopardize her freedom and so on. Also, just from the history, she was a young mother, and liked her social life, but there was no history of her not liking Caylee or mistreating Caylee, Caylee was a healthy, happy child up until June 15. So many witnesses who knew KC said that KC would never harm Caylee or just lose her or something and not look for her. I still have the feeling we don't have the full picture. I hope a lot comes out at trial. Thanks for your great points.

 

[Cat13067]

Guilty 100%

LKB has the most irritating voice I ever heard. The folks in Florida are completely turned off by this New York belle of the court room.

 

[cyberborg]

FWIW, One of the forensic pathologists on Nancy Grace said that choking does not ALWAYS fracture the hyoid and that this was particularly true in a child. I don't have a link, but I remember it because it surprised me.

I do too. It was something about, for a child of that age, the bones are too soft or too small.

 

[cyberborg]

KC killed Caylee in an intense moment of anger and rage and, if what Nancy G says is correct that premeditation can be formed in a moment of thought (no prior planning) then...

Guilty Murder 1

KC lives 10 minutes at a time so she had regular murderous fantasies but had no plan, as we would know one. KC's diary is 2008. KC was relieved and euphoric the deed was done.

The Diary of Days.

 

[Phumi]

Seagull: I bet she could have managed it one way or another, borrowed or taken enough money for a bus ticket to somewhere. But I don't think she would ever want to. That's part of the reason I don't think she would murder someone to be honest, she wouldn't want to have her social life disrupted!

Why would she have murdered in the first place, unless she suffers from serious mental illness, because she would know that all these problems would result. She would have to leave her social life and go off on her own, live on the run, etc. I don't think she'd want to do that and I definitely don't think she'd want to spend her life in prison. If she wanted out of her responsibilities I think she'd take the easy way and let her mother have either official or unofficial custody. I have trouble making the stretch to her killing Caylee at all much less premeditated. I can't rule her out but I think it's possible that someone who was around her may have harmed Caylee. She seems to be involved in something though, because she didn't report Caylee missing. Either she knew but was covering up for someone initially or thought they would kill her, too. Or, she didn't know Caylee was going to be harmed then, and still doesn't know exactly what happened or who did it. I'm still not sure. Great points you raise.

I think if she killed Caylee, she probably suffers from a serious mental illness, i.e. wasn't aware what she was doing, didn't remember she had the body in the trunk, etc, because I don't think she would knowingly jeopardize her freedom and so on. Also, just from the history, she was a young mother, and liked her social life, but there was no history of her not liking Caylee or mistreating Caylee, Caylee was a healthy, happy child up until June 15. So many witnesses who knew KC said that KC would never harm Caylee or just lose her or something and not look for her. I still have the feeling we don't have the full picture. I hope a lot comes out at trial. Thanks for your great points.

I agree with you that KC is extremely mentally ill. For this reason, we cannot use ordinary logic to explain or question her actions. I don't think we will ever know why or how she killed Caylee. Even if KC told the complete truth, I'm certain it would not make "sense" to the average person. I think the answer to all of your questions--why not give Caylee to her parents? Why drive around with a body in the car? Why risk going to prison?--is that she is mentally ill. I don't mean that in a snarky way. The entire situation is beyond tragic. But, when we try to use reason to explain her actions we will always come up empty. The bad news for KC's defense team is that her actions show consciousness of guilt (that she knew right from wrong) which eliminates an insanity defense.

 

[seagull65]

Love your avatar, Phumi and I agree, if she is the murderer and then drove around with the body in her trunk on purpose for days and finally dumped the body right near her own home just feet from the curb of a street, and failed to remove the tape from the mouth, and all the other bizarre things to incriminate herself, I think she would have to be very mentally ill.

 

[Rumpole]

Love your avatar, Phumi and I agree, if she is the murderer and then drove around with the body in her trunk on purpose for days and finally dumped the body right near her own home just feet from the curb of a street, and failed to remove the tape from the mouth, and all the other bizarre things to incriminate herself, I think she would have to be very mentally ill.

There is no question that she is "very mentally ill" as you say.

However rest assured not in the sense of being able to plead "Insanity" and escape conviction.

 

[Psmith]

All very good questions, some of which LE may be able to resolve. Finally, however, the only person who really knows is the killer.

Is KC mentally ill? I would leave that diagnosis to professionals. It is clear to me, at any rate, that her mental functions are more than adequate.

imho.

(Finally voted, sigh.)

 

[Rumpole]

All very good questions, some of which LE may be able to resolve. Finally, however, the only person who really knows is the killer.

Is KC mentally ill? I would leave that diagnosis to professionals. It is clear to me, at any rate, that her mental functions are more than adequate.

imho.

(Finally voted, sigh.)

Certainly insanity used as "proof" that KC is not guilty. "Because only an insane person" would do as she did is a twisted way to asses the case.

 

[Psmith]

Certainly insanity used as "proof" that KC is not guilty. "Because only an insane person" would do as she did is a twisted way to asses the case.

Good evening!

Well, even Ted Bundy was *not* considered insane. (Though his last frenzies were hurried, they were meant and planned......Also, he was executed for Florida cases....the final ones......when clearly decompensating [mental organization] by surprising his vics rather than following through with time-consuming, elaborate ruses notable in his earlier killings.)

Yes, KC is a far chalk from Bundy. Then there is Diane Downs, Darlie Routier, etc. Not a one declared insane.

Why am I arguing with me? Ha ha ha. Onward!

 

[Rumpole]

Good evening!

Well, even Ted Bundy was *not* considered insane. (Though his last frenzies were hurried, they were meant and planned......Also, he was executed for Florida cases....the final ones......when clearly decompensating [mental organization] by surprising his vics rather than following through with time-consuming, elaborate ruses notable in his earlier killings.)

Yes, KC is a far chalk from Bundy. Then there is Diane Downs, Darlie Routier, etc. Not a one declared insane.

Why am I arguing with me? Ha ha ha. Onward!

I am arguing with you too, but I am sure we are in perfect harmony on this issue?

To me most criminals behave in irrational ways that do not fit with my view of life, and that could be one definition of insane. But I think the legal definition of insanity is much stricter than my day to day definition and standards for others. I think being "aware" of what they are doing and knowing it is WRONG is a good rough standard?