GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former PD and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020

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This thread is so depressing. We have a young man dead and even though we are a victim friendly site, some people are assuming he just had to have deserved it. Assuming his family is lying about him being a jogger. Assuming that if he wasn't a jogger he was in the neighborhood with bad intent. Assuming he was stealing even though video doesn't show anything being stolen. Assuming he was the perpetrator of some unreported thefts. Assuming he didn't have a job because that hasn't made it to the news yet, and acting like that also would bestow upon him bad intent.

Assuming that the people responsible for his death believed him to be the perpetrator of unreported thefts. Assuming that the people responsible for his death were acting in self defense. Assuming that the people responsible for his death are justified in making a citizen's arrest, apparently for misdemeanor trespass, since that's the only thing they saw him do and GA law required eyes-on for a citizen's arrest. Assuming that it took three people in two vehicles, and a gun (or was it two?) to protect this neighborhood from a trespasser who MIGHT have had the intent to steal something out of an under-construction house. In broad daylight. On foot.

Once upon a time, we were building a home. Twice, in the middle of the night, someone came in and stole building materials. This required a truck. And the darkness of night. And we assume those were adults, because kids wouldn't need construction materials. Once, in the middle of the night, someone spray painted the brick side of the house. We assume that was teenagers. None of those three times did we think we needed to confront the perpetrators with a gun. That was OUR money flying out the unfinished windows, too, not the neighbors. No guns, no violence, no three on one. No truck vs. pedestrian. We called the cops. We contacted insurance. That was it.

Trespass. Dead. Blame the victim. So depressing.
 
This thread is so depressing. We have a young man dead and even though we are a victim friendly site, some people are assuming he just had to have deserved it. Assuming his family is lying about him being a jogger. Assuming that if he wasn't a jogger he was in the neighborhood with bad intent. Assuming he was stealing even though video doesn't show anything being stolen. Assuming he was the perpetrator of some unreported thefts. Assuming he didn't have a job because that hasn't made it to the news yet, and acting like that also would bestow upon him bad intent.

Assuming that the people responsible for his death believed him to be the perpetrator of unreported thefts. Assuming that the people responsible for his death were acting in self defense. Assuming that the people responsible for his death are justified in making a citizen's arrest, apparently for misdemeanor trespass, since that's the only thing they saw him do and GA law required eyes-on for a citizen's arrest. Assuming that it took three people in two vehicles, and a gun (or was it two?) to protect this neighborhood from a trespasser who MIGHT have had the intent to steal something out of an under-construction house. In broad daylight. On foot.

Once upon a time, we were building a home. Twice, in the middle of the night, someone came in and stole building materials. This required a truck. And the darkness of night. And we assume those were adults, because kids wouldn't need construction materials. Once, in the middle of the night, someone spray painted the brick side of the house. We assume that was teenagers. None of those three times did we think we needed to confront the perpetrators with a gun. That was OUR money flying out the unfinished windows, too, not the neighbors. No guns, no violence, no three on one. No truck vs. pedestrian. We called the cops. We contacted insurance. That was it.

Trespass. Dead. Blame the victim. So depressing.
A brilliant spot on post.
 
I"m against all types of crime. Including property crime. I'm not on board with the whole "it's just stuff" mentality. As I mentioned above, I'm always of the mind that the best way to avoid getting shot is to not commit crime. But that's jmo, in general, because I think self-defense is the issue in this case, not the castle doctrine. jmo
I think self defense is the issue in this case, too, but it was Arbery who was defending himself.

He was provoked by two men who were clearly ready or planning to use deadly force to stop him. He fought for his life and lost.

I'm not sure if the best way to avoid getting shot is to "not commit crime." Plenty of people have been shot and killed who never committed crimes at all.

I don't support criminals, but I wouldn't expect people to go around shooting them.

Imo
 
Sound like Arbery stood his ground and died for it.

IMO, more like Ahmaud felt he had nowhere to run, no way to escape the guns being pointed at him, and no choice but to try to stop the aggressor closest to him from blasting him with a shotgun.

IMO, if GA's stand your ground law is applicable at all in this situation, it allowed Ahmaud, not Junior, to use lethal force to defend himself.
 
Remember the guy that shot the exchange student trespassing in his garage late at night? He got 70 years in prison. Just saying.

Here car burglaries are pretty common. People drive to a nice neighborhood late at night/early morning, they park at the end of the street and get out and walk down the street checking car doors. If it's unlocked, they steal whatever they find. If a garage door is left open, they steal tools ECT. It's depressingly common and is probably what is happening in this neighborhood.

I find it incredibly hard to believe it's legal anywhere to hold a stranger at gunpoint because you suspect them of a crime. Yes, if you caught them committing or attempting to commit a felony (kidnaping, rape, murder) I can see it, but trespassing or petty theft?

There are circumstances where it may be legally justified to hold an individual at gunpoint while they are attempting to commit or committing a crime. Examples include forced entry at an occupied dwelling - someone breaks into a home, and the occupants hold the intruder at bay with a firearm until police arrive, a very dangerous situation. Another might involve protecting a family member from domestic violence. A similar situation could be at a business if an intruder or robber enters. In these type of situations the intruder would be a threat to life or threaten bodily harm.
 
I think self defense is the issue in this case, too, but it was Arbery who was defending himself.

He was provoked by two men who were clearly ready or planning to use deadly force to stop him. He fought for his life and lost.

I'm not sure if the best way to avoid getting shot is to "not commit crime." Plenty of people have been shot and killed who never committed crimes at all.

I don't support criminals, but I wouldn't expect people to go around shooting them.

Imo

Yes. What I should have said is that not committing crime is among the rules one should follow if they're looking not to get shot. Not saying this person was committing a crime, since we don't know that yet. I do agree that plenty of innocent people are shot and killed every single day who never committed crimes at all. But only a tiny fraction end up on WS, so that's not where my head was at when I posted. Apologies.
 
IMO, more like Ahmaud felt he had nowhere to run, no way to escape the guns being pointed at him, and no choice but to try to stop the aggressor closest to him from blasting him with a shotgun.

IMO, if GA's stand your ground law is applicable at all in this situation, it allowed Ahmaud, not Junior, to use lethal force to defend himself.
ITA
 
Still having difficulty believing that $2,500 of fishing gear was stolen from an uninhabited house still under construction. Or understanding how it could be that a handgun was stolen from Junior- from his unlocked car, for that matter.

And...can't understand why questions are being asked about whether or not the victim had a job, what he wanted to be when he grew up, or if he really did routinely jog, rather than raise what imo are the far more relevant questions about whether or not Senior had a record of using excessive force while serving as LE, and if Junior had any history of using violence against others, including domestically.
 
Larry English, the man who owns the house under construction, told
@washingtonpost
the structure was not robbed. “That’s completely wrong. I’ve never had a police report or anything stolen from my property, or any kind of robbery,” he said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...cal-officials-handling-ahmaud-arberys-murder/

WOW, thanks for the link

Somebody should let the Daily Beast know that I guess. I wonder who they spoke to or how they managed to get that wrong? Or is LE receiving threats and trying to get as far away from possible from a hot mess that he has been dragged into because of the actions of the neighbors on that fateful Sunday afternoon? I don't envy this poor guy. He didn't sign up for any of this.

One was a theft of $2,500 worth of fishing equipment from English’s property, which he said he didn’t report to police but confirmed to The Daily Beast. ‘It’s Murder’: This Shooting of an Unarmed Black Man Is Roiling Georgia

ETA I was very curious as to why fishing equipment would be stored at an open new construction work site. So now I have circled back to the was ANYTHING, except TM's 9mm stolen? Was there any burglary at all aside from the removal of a gun from TM's unlocked truck some months before??
 
@joshscampbell


Georgia's Attorney General says he has requested the U.S. Justice Department conduct an investigation into the handling of the Ahmaud Arbery Case.

Investigation will include looking into communications by and between the Brunswick and Waycross District Attorneys, he said.
 
WOW, thanks for the link

Somebody should let the Daily Beast know that I guess. I wonder who they spoke to or how they managed to get that wrong? Or is LE receiving threats and trying to get as far away from possible from a hot mess that he has been dragged into because of the actions of the neighbors on that fateful Sunday afternoon? I don't envy this poor guy. He didn't sign up for any of this.

One was a theft of $2,500 worth of fishing equipment from English’s property, which he said he didn’t report to police but confirmed to The Daily Beast. ‘It’s Murder’: This Shooting of an Unarmed Black Man Is Roiling Georgia

ETA I was very curious as to why fishing equipment would be stored at an open new construction work site. So now I have circled back to the was ANYTHING, except TM's 9mm stolen? Was there any burglary at all aside from the removal of a gun from TM's unlocked truck some months before??

A link to a local paper's mention of that handgun theft. On New Year's day, early AM, when Senior moved Junior's truck, forgot to lock the door, and Junior came out shortly later to find an empty holster on the front seat of his truck. Allegedly. (An aside: was Senior living in Junior's house? Do neither of them have a wife or children?)

What a very strange time to go a'robbing, and what a very short window of opportunity for a theft to have have actually, for real, taken place.

Dispatcher: 'What was he doing wrong?'

About English. The fish gear theft never made sense, imo, nor that it took place and he didn't report it. He's in an unenviable position, but I'd guess if he's been
feeling acute pressure, it first came from junior and senior and their allies, then perhaps from his own attorney advising him that English needed to look after his own interests first, lest he find himself in legal jeopardy himself.
 
1. The owner of the house under construction was there, on the premises, at the time when someone, possibly Ahmaud, "trespassed" on his property. Unless the owner of the house is also the video-taping, co-chasing neighbor (and that doesn't seem to be the case), this owner witnessed a "trespassing" but wasn't bothered enough by it to even call LE, much less to arm himself and give chase.

2. McMichael Sr. seems to have been the first caller to 911 that day. If so, notice that he doesn't tell LE that he's going to give chase, doesn't say he's going to make a citizen's arrest, doesn't tell LE that he recognizes Ahmaud, and from available evidence, lies when he connects Ahmaud to multiple neighborhood burglaries (on both those counts).

3. In fact, even when Senior gave a statement to LE he
didn't tell them that he & junior chased Ahmaud in order to make a citizen's arrest. The police report lists Senior as a "witness," not a participant, even though in Senior's own words, he instigated the "hot pursuit of Ahmaud, and instructed Junior to grab a gun on the way out.

4. I don't know why senior & junior felt it necessary or OK to pursue Ahmaud. Lots of possibilities. But...legally, it doesn't matter. Neither had the legal right to make a "citizen's arrest." And, even if they did, that law doesn't allow them to use excessive force. Which they used even BEFORE threatening Ahmaud with drawn guns, by pursuing him in a truck, and repeatedly trying to force him off the road with that truck.

5. I don't why the video-taping neighbor got involved, nor why he felt compelled to videotape the pursuit. I'm glad he did film, and glad a defense atty leaked the footage, because it's obvious IMO that had he not, neither junior or senior would ever have been arrested.

That said, I'm just as glad that LE is now investigating him too. He wasn't just a witness, he was a participant, and a crucial one at that. Both the police report and his own video show that (at different times) he cut off Ahmaud's escape.

6. Ahmaud tried to escape his pursuers. Earlier, before the video begins, he had turned around and tried to flee back in the direction he had just been, AWAY from jr and senior. At that point, senior was in the truck. The videotaper blocked Ahmaud. Ahmaud turned again, ran again.

I can't imagine the terror he must have felt, being hunted down that way.

7. Senior lied in how he described what happened next. That's telling. But. It also doesn't matter legally, as relates to stand your ground, imo. Jr and Sr were the aggressors, start to finish, beginning when they grabbed their guns, and ending when Senior exited the truck to go stand, armed, in the open bed, facing Ahmaud as he was forced to run forward by the videotaper blocking his retreat, and when junior exited the truck, shotgun in his hands, blocking Ahmaud from running to the left, then moving towards him in front of the truck.

8. What I think I hear on the video, just as Ahmaud approaches the truck, is either junior or senior yelling at Ahmaud- "stop running, s-hithead!"

IMO, neither junior or senior intended to kill Ahmaud when they grabbed guns and chased after him. Neither do I think that junior had murder on his mind when he stepped out of the truck, shotgun in hand.

What I do believe is that both felt an extraordinarily disturbing sense of entitlement throughout, including a "right" to terrorize Ahmaud (I'm positive they knew they were doing exactly that); that both became
increasingly enraged when Ahmaud didn't "comply" with their demands, and that each made deliberate decisions to escalate their intimidation of/threats to Ahmaud.
Thanks, I did not know about #1 (the owner being on the property). Moreover, I agree with all of your points. McMichael also knew Ahmaud Arbery so if he was in fact doing what he alleged (trying to capture a trespasser or presumed burglar) then he could have just told him Ahmaud's name. This was intentional and meant to terrorize and perhaps even kill someone. Ahmaud's family needs justice.
 
Thanks, I did not know about #1 (the owner being on the property). Moreover, I agree with all of your points. McMichael also knew Ahmaud Arbery so if he was in fact doing what he alleged (trying to capture a trespasser or presumed burglar) then he could have just told him Ahmaud's name. This was intentional and meant to terrorize and perhaps even kill someone. Ahmaud's family needs justice.

Turns out that English wasn't on the property. Early reporting got that detail wrong, and I repeated that reporting here. Sorry. Turns out (perhaps, anyway), that English was automatically and remotely notified about Ahmaud being on the property.
 
I"m against all types of crime. Including property crime. I'm not on board with the whole "it's just stuff" mentality. As I mentioned above, I'm always of the mind that the best way to avoid getting shot is to not commit crime. But that's jmo, in general, because I think self-defense is the issue in this case, not the castle doctrine. jmo
I just don't see the self-defense angle because Arbery was trying to get away from them.
 
WOW, thanks for the link

Somebody should let the Daily Beast know that I guess. I wonder who they spoke to or how they managed to get that wrong? Or is LE receiving threats and trying to get as far away from possible from a hot mess that he has been dragged into because of the actions of the neighbors on that fateful Sunday afternoon? I don't envy this poor guy. He didn't sign up for any of this.

One was a theft of $2,500 worth of fishing equipment from English’s property, which he said he didn’t report to police but confirmed to The Daily Beast. ‘It’s Murder’: This Shooting of an Unarmed Black Man Is Roiling Georgia

ETA I was very curious as to why fishing equipment would be stored at an open new construction work site. So now I have circled back to the was ANYTHING, except TM's 9mm stolen? Was there any burglary at all aside from the removal of a gun from TM's unlocked truck some months before??

I don't see anywhere in the Daily Beast article where it says the fishing equipment or any of the other reports had to do with English's house, do you? I may have missed it since I looked at the article on my phone and it's so long.
 
We will never know what Mr. Arbery was actually doing on that fateful day. He is unable to tell us. We are all hypothesizing no matter the angle we take on his motivations/thinking process. We have video that shows him jogging into a frame, entering the house, a man coming into view across the street after Mr. Arbery entered the home, and staying by a tree until after Mr. Arbery leaves the home. Then, we have the video of him being killed.

It is interesting to me that there are questions about every aspect of Mr. Arbery's life and decisions as though not having a job or not completing school, or wanting to be a boxer or whatever points to him being a thief and causing the circumstances that befell him. Yes, he went into a home under construction. There is no evidence that he took anything. Yes, he jogged on and was beset upon by two vehicles with three occupants with two of those occupants determined to talk with him and stop him.

I surmise that at least one 911 call is from the killer's father but yet the caller never says we will be in pursuit. The killer's father says that he told his son that Mr. Arbery was hauling ___ away and remarked, "Let's go." At which point they grabbed their guns and off they went. Oddly enough, how did the son know to grab a gun? How did the son know what his father meant when he said, "Let's go." to him. If I said this to my adult son after seeing a man running in our neighborhood, my son would ask me what I meant and, he certainly would not have rushed to the gun locker to pull out a firearm. Yet it seems that the DA and others see nothing strange about two grown men getting into a pick-up with the older man/father in the back and giving chase to a man they don't know-- a man who had not threatened them, spoke with them, ran by them with a drawn gun, ran by them with items stolen from the house, and a man who had already left the scene of the house. Interesting to me that many don't even give a second thought to this part of the scenario but will judge and make assumptions about Mr. Arbery's action.
Excellent post IMO.
 
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