GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former PD and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020

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I agree they could have handled it in a variety of other ways, better ways. But chalking it up to a construction worker isn't one of them. I've never seen a construction worker walking a site in jogging shorts, or shorts of any kind. AMOO
They do wear shorts when the weather is warm.

In fact Carhartt makes khaki work shorts similar to the one the man in the video inside the house is wearing. I hadn't thought of that before.

My ex-husband was a contractor, and he never wore those shorts but his men did. We would sometimes go on the weekends to see how the work was progressing, in casual clothes, so it's really not unusual to think it may have been someone associated with the work.

It's no more unusual than instantly assuming Arbery was the man responsible for the earlier thefts, especially since it doesn't appear that McMichaels was close enough to positively identify him.

It looks to me like he was looking inside the house because he was curious. If he was really associated with the burglary, why go back to the same area in the middle of the day and risk being seen?

Imo
 
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Remember the guy that shot the exchange student trespassing in his garage late at night? He got 70 years in prison. Just saying.

Here car burglaries are pretty common. People drive to a nice neighborhood late at night/early morning, they park at the end of the street and get out and walk down the street checking car doors. If it's unlocked, they steal whatever they find. If a garage door is left open, they steal tools ECT. It's depressingly common and is probably what is happening in this neighborhood.

I find it incredibly hard to believe it's legal anywhere to hold a stranger at gunpoint because you suspect them of a crime. Yes, if you caught them committing or attempting to commit a felony (kidnaping, rape, murder) I can see it, but trespassing or petty theft?

Here, thankfully, in many states we have a castle doctrine and/or a stand your ground law. The castle doctrine language varies slightly from state to state. In essence it gives a resident the right to protect their person, family, pets, and property against an intruder. I'm not saying those apply in the situation with AA. Like many, I'm waiting for all of the details to come to light. Someone upthread said it best..."Fool me once, shame on me..."

Just some general comments. In most states, it doesn't take much money or monetary value to be stolen before a misdemeanor (what you might call petty crime) becomes a felony. I get the sense that the laws may differ significantly on this point across countries.

Another potential area of difference, if someone were to enter a new construction home that's unfinished but where the outside walls, doors, and windows are in place, a misdemeanor trespass charge becomes a felony B&E. If that same person is carrying a weapon (knife, gun, etc.) on them at the time, add another felony or more.

To those who mentioned that they are tempted to visit new construction sites, it's probably best to view from a distance, or just ask the new homeowner for permission if they are there. That is something that puzzles me about whoever it was trespassing on the site. If the homeowner was there, why not just go up and say, "Hi, I'm so-and-so. I've always been fascinated by construction. How's your house coming along?" Most homeowners are proud as pie of their new home and would be happy to show someone about, especially if the walls aren't up yet.

One last thing. It's a question for everyone. I have no clue as to the answer. What if the homeowner's video shows that it was someone other than AA who was trespassing. Could that person be charged in some way? Before you laugh my question under the table, these situations happen frequently with DUIs. There was a recent case where a driver was over the limit. He pulled off on the shoulder of the highway and went to sleep, engine no longer running. A car broke down just a few car lengths ahead of driver 1, where they patiently awaited roadside assistance. Next comes car 3, a sober driver who either wasn't paying attention or had serious night blindness. He proceeds to hit the left rear of car 1, propelling it into car 2 and killing car 2's occupant. When it was all said and done, they charged the driver of car#1 with multiple felonies, reasoning that but for his decision to drive drunk, the chain of events would not reasonably have played out that way. Thoughts on my question about the trespasser? (I'm not equating these situations. I'm only using that example to illustrate how complex things can get.) TIA
 
in reading more from the Daily Beast I found the following info:

Arbery was not armed. What he had done was visit the foundation of a home being built just down the street from Travis McMichael’s home, a new structure whose owner, Larry English, told The Daily Beast he received a notification on his cell phone of someone on his property that day. He provided footage to The Daily Beast that Brooks, Arbery’s aunt, identified as depicting her nephew.

[SNIP]

For his part, English said he felt terrible that a man may have been killed in a possible attempt at defending his unfinished home. “I want to convey my condolences to this boy’s mama. No parent should ever have to go through that,” English told The Daily Beast. “I’m holding my hat in my hand asking for forgiveness.”

Although a past $2500 theft on the property was never reported to police apparently neighbors on the block were aware of the theft/loss.

Mr. English was not present the day of the shooting and not involved in the events that day outside of remotely getting a phone notification that someone was on the under construction property and viewing the video of Arbery on the property February 23. I feel bad for him. He seems very upset that his property was the object which started the confrontation between TM GM and AA that day.

my opinion on the actions of TM and GM hasn't changed as yet but at least know I know that
a) the third man (videotaper of shooting) was "Roddy"
b) LE is the property owner of construction site
c) there was an unreported theft earlier this year of items alleged to be around $2500 as confirmed by property owner. Meaning that wasn't something just manufactured by the McMichaels at the scene of the shooting.

ETA c)

I'm not commenting on the article, bc I didn't read it. IMO (and many others) the Daily Beast arguably, at best, qualifies as MSM. Again, only MOO.
 
“Complete shock. I’ve never been involved in anything like that before,” Bryan said. “Complete shock.”

[SNIP]

“I am not feeling safe at all… I haven’t felt safe in at least 3 to 5 days now,” Bryan said. “Like Amy (Elrod, Bryan’s fiancée) has said, the threats have been real.”

[SNIP]

“I had nothing to do with it. I’m trying to get my life back to normal, and it’s been smeared for the last week,” Bryan said. “I was told I was a witness and I’m not sure what I am, other than receiving a bunch of threats.”

[SNIP]

Gough said people should be thanking his client.

"But for his action, there would be no evidence of this crime," Gough said.

Man who recorded shooting of Ahmaud Arbery speaks out, says he’s getting death threats
 
wouldn’t you try to take away the gun from the person who was brandishing it at you, seemingly to KILL YOU with it??!
this is crazy! i keep seeing people say about ahmaud “maybe he wasn’t *just* a jogger?” “maybe he was committing crimes? we’ll find out.” GUESS WHAT? even if he was trespassing (which he seems to be in the house videos, altho he doesn’t seem to be doing it for nefarious reasons) HE STILL DID NOT DESERVE TO BE MURDERED. YES, MURDERED! HE WAS MURDERED!!!!
a police officer can’t shoot someone they think might have committed a crime. that’s murder. a random gun happy citizen? DEFINITELY murder. how is this even in question????
my heart is broken for ahmaud and those who loved him. he is the VICTIM here and he did NOT deserve to die and he does NOT deserve to have his character questioned after death!
Would I try to take the gun? Absolutely not. I would do whatever I needed to do to not get shot.
 
Georgia attorney general requests federal probe in handling of Ahmaud Arbery case
JEFF AMY
ATLANTA
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
PUBLISHED MAY 10, 2020UPDATED 2 HOURS AGO


Georgia’s attorney general on Sunday asked the U.S. Department of Justice to investigate the handling of the killing of Ahmaud Arbery, a black man who authorities say died at the hands of two white men as he ran through a neighbourhood.

[...]

“We are committed to a complete and transparent review of how the Ahmaud Arbery case was handled from the outset,” Attorney General Chris Carr said in a statement. “The family, the community and the state of Georgia deserve answers, and we will work with others in law enforcement at the state and federal level to find those answers.”
[...]
Good- IMO there may be an ethics violation
JMO
 
I agree they could have handled it in a variety of other ways, better ways. But chalking it up to a construction worker isn't one of them. I've never seen a construction worker walking a site in jogging shorts, or shorts of any kind. AMOO

They do wear shorts when the weather is warm.

I agree with Ms. Betsy. But... I think the construction in shorts issue could be a regional habit.

Construction workers wearing shorts are fairly common in Florida. My guess is that coastal Georgia could have the same construct in shorts habits.

Construction is also less regulated in the South. This means it is more common for semi skilled and un skilled helpers to be employed day by day on a job site. These men would can show up sans tools and sans work clothes and by a variety of means car, drop off, walk up.

As to whether it is common for helpers to show up early at a job site before anybody else and whether single home construction job sites see a lot of work on southern Sundays, I would say that both are well, possible, but not very likely, and could well be highly unlikely.
 
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brief video statements from Cooper-Jones (Arbery's mother) to First Coast News

brief video statements from Cooper-Jones to NBC news

Interview the mother of Ahmaud Arbery
NBC Montana footage of answers with Cooper-Jones (this appears to be raw footage containing only her responses but not the questions being posed by interviewer?)

Here is a Don Lemon CNN interview with Cooper-Jones
Georgia man shot and killed while jogging, mother says - CNN Video

in the last linked interview Cooper-Jones (2:45 mark) states she was originally told by authorities on February 23rd that her son was involved in a burglary and that there was a confrontation between her son and the homeowner and that her son was shot and killed during the tussle involving a struggle over the firearm.

It is MOO that If evidence existed that there was a burglary involving AA we would have already seen it. It goes directly to the alleged motives of the accused so if there was some sort of evidence linking AA to a crime it would have been leaked to "quell tensions" and not the video of the shooting itself, which has had the polar opposite effect.

At this particular point in time, it's my opinion that no video under the sun could quell tensions. I have family near there. They're afraid for everyone right now in Georgia, regardless of race, ethnicity...
 
Would I try to take the gun? Absolutely not. I would do whatever I needed to do to not get shot.

He already tried turning and running away from them. By their own admission, they then changed course and pursued him in with their truck. At what point is it acceptable for him to defend himself? IMO, they were behaving in an extremely threatening manner and he was out of options. He had no way of knowing if they would continue to pursue him or shoot him. He had no way of knowing the police were on the way. He either had to continue to try to dodge and outrun the men with the guns and truck, obey their commands, not knowing who they were or their intentions, or try to protect himself.
 
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He already tried turning and running away from them. By their own admission, they then changed course and pursued him in with their truck. At what point is it acceptable for him to defend himself? IMO, they were behaving in an extremely threatening manner and he was out of options. He had no way of knowing if they would continue to pursue him or shoot him. He had no way of knowing the police were on the way. He either had to continue to try to dodge and outrun the men with the guns and truck, obey their commands, not knowing who they were or their intentions, or try to protect himself.
He asked me if I would have tried to take the gun. The answer is no. I would stop and put my hands up. Would that turn out well? Maybe not, but it would be my best available option.
 
Would I try to take the gun? Absolutely not. I would do whatever I needed to do to not get shot.

Agreed.
If I was in close quarters and myself or a family member were in a life or death situation, then absolutely. But there is no way on God's green earth that I'm going to causally run towards someone who has a shotgun in hand, (with someone else standing by with a handgun) then charge them at the last minute and try and wrestle it away from them.

It's easy for people to sit here and say they would do exactly the same as AA did in this situation, but I find that quite unbelievable.

MOO.
 
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That home is a lot closer to the main structure being complete than some news made it seem, or maybe I just read them and pictured what I thought "all open" new residential construction would look like. AMOO
 
Agreed.
If I was in close quarters and myself or a family member were in a life or death situation, then absolutely. But there is no way on God's green earth that I'm going to causally run towards someone who has a shotgun in hand, (with someone else standing by with a handgun) then charge them at the last minute and try and wrestle it away from them.

It's easy for people to sit here and say they would do exactly the same as AA did in this situation, but I find that quite unbelievable.
To be fair, I’ve only seen one person in any of these videos doing exactly what I would have done. The guy in the surveillance video that stands outside across the street and calls the cops. That’s really the only guy whose actions I can relate to.
 
Agreed.
If I was in close quarters and myself or a family member were in a life or death situation, then absolutely. But there is no way on God's green earth that I'm going to causally run towards someone who has a shotgun in hand, (with someone else standing by with a handgun) then charge them at the last minute and try and wrestle it away from them.

It's easy for people to sit here and say they would do exactly the same as AA did in this situation, but I find that quite unbelievable.

MOO.

Humans engage in fight, flight, or freeze as a response to a critical event. We all respond in different ways. Individuals don't always respond in the same exact way to every event, to make it even more complicated.

What made sense for Arbery, if we are saying he was defending himself, may have been to fight these individuals.

What would make sense for another person might be to freeze - put their hands up, not say anything, etc.
 
It is easy to say what we would or would not do in a situation such as this, and hopefully most of us will never have to find out. My self defense classes have taught me that someone who complies with an armed person is in the most danger. I have always been taught to run from the assailant as that is your overall best chance of survival. Arbery tried to run and that didn't deter the men, so he made a different choice. We will never know his thought process since he can no longer speak.

IMO, the question is whether or not the father and son had a legal right to pursue Arbery with guns.
 
New surveillance video shows Ahmaud Arbery entering construction site then leaving empty-handed | Daily Mail Online
"...In the two months before Ahmaud's killing, there were no reports of suspected burglaries in the area, and the owner of the under-construction property has spoken out to say they have no links to the McMichaels whatsoever...."

Am curious about the stolen fishing equipment that the owner didn't report.
Was it from the house under construction ?
Usually you begin bringing you possessions into the home after it's close to being completed.

It would appear from the homeowner's newly-released footage that Ahmaud was just checking out the new building.
And yes there are those elsewhere and here in this thread who have done the same thing !

I like to visualize how it's all going to look after completion.
Never have I been shot at, and actually have never even been asked to leave.
I've looked at it from the sidewalk as I don't want to risk getting injured or something falling on my head.
Yes I'm a wimp when it comes to safety.

My friend jogs before work in the early a.m.; & likes to look at houses under construction and once when he was looking at a home under construction, a crew foreman drove up with 2 employees and gave him a business card in case he wanted some work done in the future.

This was so stupid on the part of the perps; and such a sad and unnecessary death.
 
Would I try to take the gun? Absolutely not. I would do whatever I needed to do to not get shot.
I probably would too. Still, Arbery had every right to defend himself. He was being pursued by three men with two vehicles and a deadly weapon. They were the instigators in this situation, not him.

LE said they had enough probable cause to justify charging the two men with murder.

The GBI director indicated that the fact that within 36 hours they had secured warrants for felony murder "speaks volumes for itself."

I think the video is the most compelling evidence they have, as well as the 911 call. During the call the dispatcher asks what Arbery was doing wrong. The caller responds, "he's been caught on camera before. It's kind of an ongoing thing out here."

This seems to disprove the claim that they were attempting to make a citizen's arrest, as the victim was not in the process of committing a felony when he was shot down.

Imo
 
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