GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former PD and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020

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Boxer

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I asked a simple question. "Is there anywhere in the video or elsewhere, where guns are being pointed".

Not brandished, not readied, not laying on a truck seat, not in a holster. "Pointed".

<modsnip: Snarky comments are a violation of Websleuths TOS>

No. Though reported that Travis had his finger on the trigger.
 
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Hope4More

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If there were no way to prove it, it would be pretty silly to have a "mere intent" crime. The jury will, no doubt, decide whether there was intent. Most likely based on evidence that we have no idea about yet. Unless the defendants take a plea, of course. all jmo

The way to prove intent is to provide evidence of that intent. Say...the intruder brought a hammer or another tool, intending to break into a locked container, in order to thieve. Say he smashed and banged, but couldn't get into the thing, made lots of noise, got nervy, then fled.

Easy to prove what he intended, even if he didn't succeed. Just looking around while inside? Multiple times? Not so much.

And I don't think there's much chance that a judge would permit a jury to see those nighttime videos, much less to hear arguments about an unknown trespasser's intent. It's completely irrelevant at best, and prejudicial up the wazoo.
 

branmuffin

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Yes? lol. Once again, not sure what you're driving at.

We'll never know. The suspected felon is dead. Somebody killed him based on a hunch. No one will ever know what his intentions were. The only thing we do know is that he did what lots of people do, check out a construction site. How many of us have done that? I have.

A new build was going up near my old house. I passed it every day walking my dog. It's what's called a stitch home, where the foundation was poured but the main components were built in a factory. It was delayed because of heavy and unrelenting rain. I went into that structure almost every day to rescue frogs and a couple of turtles that fell in.

I hope anyone who would have questioned my presence there would have ended up helping me get all those frogs out of the basement. I doubt anyone would have called the cops. And I most certainly believe no one would have chased me down the street brandishing weapons.
 

Cappuccino

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Which is why talking head attorneys are mostly or entirely in agreement that Ahmaud, if guilty of anything that day, had committed the misdemeanor offense of trespassing. Not of first or second degree burglary, which yes, are both felonies. And both require proving that pesky element of intent to commit a crime.
Ah, but here we have a problem. If Arbery were still alive and being accused of second degree burglary, intent would need to be proved. But you don't need to prove intent before you carry out a citizen's arrest - reasonable suspicion of a felony is enough.

I'm back to thinking the McMichaels could easily be acquitted.
 

Boxer

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2010 Georgia Code
TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS
ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS
§ 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest

O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest


A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

2010 Georgia Code :: TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE :: CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS :: ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS :: § 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest
 

firebird

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The way to prove intent is to provide evidence of that intent. Say...the intruder brought a hammer or another tool, intending to break into a locked container, in order to thieve. Say he smashed and banged, but couldn't get into the thing, made lots of noise, got nervy, then fled.

Easy to prove what he intended, even if he didn't succeed. Just looking around while inside? Multiple times? Not so much.

And I don't think there's much chance that a judge would permit a jury to see those nighttime videos, much less to hear arguments about an unknown trespasser's intent. It's completely irrelevant at best, and prejudicial up the wazoo.

There's lots of ways to prove intent. Just for example, a text or statement to a witness. We have absolutely no idea what evidence there is or is not of intent.
 

branmuffin

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2010 Georgia Code
TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS
ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS
§ 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest

O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest


A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

2010 Georgia Code :: TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE :: CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS :: ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS :: § 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest

The circumstances in this case would never fly in Ontario where I live.

"A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge."

Neither of those circumstances apply here. Unless they follow the 'telephone game' line of defense in Georgia.
 

Cappuccino

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2010 Georgia Code
TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS
ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS
§ 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest

O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest


A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

2010 Georgia Code :: TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE :: CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS :: ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS :: § 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest
Whoever made the 911 call reported that Arbery had gone into the house under construction. And if you watch the video, Arbery walked up the road to the house and then came out a few minutes later running.

So they've seen him enter someone else's property, then come out at a run.

I think there is a case to say that the citizens arrest was legal. Dumb, but legal. And I'm afraid if the citizens arrest was legal, so was the shooting.
 

Boxer

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Sillybilly

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Ah, but here we have a problem. If Arbery were still alive and being accused of second degree burglary, intent would need to be proved. But you don't need to prove intent before you carry out a citizen's arrest - reasonable suspicion of a felony is enough.

I'm back to thinking the McMichaels could easily be acquitted.

But the individual making the citizens arrest has to have witnessed the suspected crime and the McMichaels did not witness any crime.

Breaking down Georgia’s Citizen’s Arrest Law

[...]

Georgia’s Citizen’s Arrest Law allows people to arrest anyone that they’ve witnessed committing a crime in their presence or has immediate knowledge of the crime, but attorneys around the state say that wasn’t the case in Ahmaud Arbery’s death.

[...]
 

Cappuccino

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But the individual making the citizens arrest has to have witnessed the suspected crime and the McMichaels did not witness any crime.

Breaking down Georgia’s Citizen’s Arrest Law

[...]

Georgia’s Citizen’s Arrest Law allows people to arrest anyone that they’ve witnessed committing a crime in their presence or has immediate knowledge of the crime, but attorneys around the state say that wasn’t the case in Ahmaud Arbery’s death.

[...]
They, or whoever made the 911 call, witnessed him entering English's house.
 

firebird

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But the individual making the citizens arrest has to have witnessed the suspected crime and the McMichaels did not witness any crime.

Breaking down Georgia’s Citizen’s Arrest Law

[...]

Georgia’s Citizen’s Arrest Law allows people to arrest anyone that they’ve witnessed committing a crime in their presence or has immediate knowledge of the crime, but attorneys around the state say that wasn’t the case in Ahmaud Arbery’s death.

[...]

Immediate knowledge isn't the same as witnessing though.
 

Hope4More

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Can you provide a time stamp in the video of the altercation where guns were pointed at AA?

Or possibly a link to an msm article where it states guns were "pointed" at AA?

Nope. The guns pointed thing related to the cleaning crew scenario. But....generally speaking, I would classify holding a shotgun with finger on the trigger, moving towards Ahmaud, and an autopsy report that the first shot fired hit Ahmaud's hand as solid enough evidence of a gun "being pointed." Ditto, again generally speaking, of Senior exiting the truck to stand in the truck's open bed, facing Ahmed, and visible on the video, yep, reaching for his gun as Ahmaud struggled desperately to disarm Junior.
 

Sillybilly

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Sorry, not credible. He thinks the citizens arrest was illegal "because the man was jogging." .He was not jogging, he was running away from a property that he had no business entering.

There is nothing in the police report to indicate the McMichaels witnessed him running away from the property. It specifically states they first saw AA "running down Burford Drive", so not entering or leaving the house under construction.
 

debbiegarcia36

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Does anyone have any thoughts on what role "Roddie" played in recording the incident. After watching tonight's interview with Chris Cuomo on CNN I am thinking Roddie was recording the incident either as a potential witness to a crime or because he wanted to use it as evidence against the father and son team.
 
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Cappuccino

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There is nothing in the police report to indicate the McMichaels witnessed him running away from the property. It specifically states they first saw AA "running down Burford Drive", so not entering or leaving the house under construction.
Then someone else must have made the 911 call, because whoever the caller was they stated that they'd seen him enter English's house.

Actually, from googling I see there were two 911 calls made. The first reported that he'd gone into the house, the second reporting that he was running down the road away from the house.
 
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Leve

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There is nothing in the police report to indicate the McMichaels witnessed him running away from the property. It specifically states they first saw AA "running down Burford Drive", so not entering or leaving the house under construction.

I read that the McMichaels lived 4 houses down the road on the same side of the street. There was no way they could see AA enter the property.
 

Cappuccino

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I read that the McMichaels lived 4 houses down the road on the same side of the street. There was no way they could see AA enter the property.
Well, someone saw him.

Anyway they could easily have seen him if they'd been outside the house.
 
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