GA - Ahmaud Arbery, 25, jogger, fatally shot by former PD and son, Brunswick, Feb 2020

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Sillybilly

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Then someone else must have made the 911 call, because whoever the caller was they stated that they'd seen him enter English's house.

And the person making that first call gave the address as "219 or 220 Santilla Drive", so not when McMichaels saw him running on Burford.

 

debbiegarcia36

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I read that the McMichaels lived 4 houses down the road on the same side of the street. There was no way they could see AA enter the property.
What about if they were outside by their truck? Had their phone on them and called 911. Just listened to one of the 911 calls on CNN. The caller states there he goes running...
 

Sunshine99

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If questioned by police, say nothing until your lawyer is present. The McMichaels are allowed to stand outside with loaded firearms (open carry) They did not place hands on Arbery to "arrest" him. Arbery ran to someone holding a gun, and pulled on the gun, and that motion could have caused the gun to fire. Also, pulling on the gun is an attempt of theft of the gun? You just can not allow someone to take your gun. But the GBI still thinks there is reasonable cause to arrest the McMichaels for murder and aggravated assault. They might have said the wrong thing. JMO
 
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Hope4More

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Ah, but here we have a problem. If Arbery were still alive and being accused of second degree burglary, intent would need to be proved. But you don't need to prove intent before you carry out a citizen's arrest - reasonable suspicion of a felony is enough.

I'm back to thinking the McMichaels could easily be acquitted.

Well, "reasonable suspicion" by a wannabee citizen arrester that a felony had been committed by someone actually is NOT enough.

1. Again. Neither Senior or Junior witnessed Ahmaud entering into English's property that day. It was physically impossible for them to have witnessed it, and they have never claimed they did. Whether or not Ahmaud's entry that day was a misdemeanor or a felony is therefore legally irrelevant.

2. What Senior has said is that he identified Ahmaud as the man he had seen in English's nighttime videos, AND that he believed was responsible for a "rash" of burglaries in the neighborhood.

3. Neither Senior or Junior witnessed any of the alleged burglaries OR the trespasses. The most recent incident on record was the supposed theft of Junior's gun from his unlocked truck, almost 2 months prior. Unwitnessed. And not captured on surveillance tape. Ditto the theft of fishing gear, not from English's construction site, unreported if true, and not captured on surveillance tape.

4. Even if Senior thought the prior trespasses onto English's site were felonies (despite what he saw on the tapes), he did NOT have the requisite immediate knowledge of those"crimes" to make a citizen's arrest. That even after the fact it can't be established that Ahmaud was the man in those videos tells you Senior lacked that requisite knowledge.

Beyond all that, it isn't permissible for a private party to pursue someone as Junior and Senior did unless they witnessed Ahmaud commiting a crime (they didn't) and saw him attempting to flee the crime (see not witnessing any crime), and even when such pursuit is permissable, the use of excessive force in that pursuit most definitely isn't.
 

debbiegarcia36

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I read that the McMichaels lived 4 houses down the road on the same side of the street. There was no way they could see AA enter the property.
What about if they were outside by their truck? Had their phone on them and called 911. Just listened to one of the 911 calls on CNN. The caller states there he goes running...
You can clearly see the caller in the surveillance video.
Not following. Which is the surveillance video? One one of AA inside the home under construction? Ok, never mind. I get it now.
 
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Hope4More

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Well, someone saw him.

Anyway they could easily have seen him if they'd been outside the house.

Overalls saw Ahmaud enter the garage (or wherever the daytime video captured). Shucks, though, Overalls called a full minute BEFORE Ahmaud had gone in, or done anything but stand on the site's front lawn.

And no, if you look up the 2 places on an interactive street level map (JRs house and the construction site) you will see for yourself that it was impossible for Senior to have seen Ahmaud from where he said he was situated. Plus, AGAIN. Senior has never said he did see that entry. What he said is that he first saw Ahmaud as he RAN BY Jr's house. On Satilla Drive. He and Jr next spotted A on Burford Rd, which is a wee hop skip and jump from Jr's house.
 
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Longtime_lurker2019

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If questioned by police, say nothing until your lawyer is present. The McMichaels are allowed to stand outside with loaded firearms (open carry) They did not place hands on Arbery to "arrest" him. Arbery ran to someone holding a gun, and pulled on the gun, and that motion could have caused the gun to fire. Also, pulling on the gun is an attempt of theft of the gun? You just can not allow someone to take your gun. But the GBI still thinks there is reasonable cause to arrest the McMichaels for murder and aggravated assault. They might have said the wrong thing. JMO
So ahmaud running and escaping twice that night, until he was stuck, leads you to that? Interesting take
 

Hope4More

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This is a practicing lawyer in the area. He breakers down the statutes. He disagrees with you whole hog Firebird.
The Ahmaud Arbery Killing and Georgia Law

Wow. He even is sure there's evidence enough to prove pointed guns. ;)

Sure hope he's wrong about Senior being connected enough to guarantee a judge sympathetic enough to grant him that pretrial, get out of decades of prison time immunity motion.

Though given this case's high profile, and knowing that the feds will be looking over any judge's shoulder might well dampen judicial sympathies and curtail behind the scenes manuevering and switcheroos.
 

MsBetsy

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Ah, but here we have a problem. If Arbery were still alive and being accused of second degree burglary, intent would need to be proved. But you don't need to prove intent before you carry out a citizen's arrest - reasonable suspicion of a felony is enough.

I'm back to thinking the McMichaels could easily be acquitted.
But they had no reason to suspect him of committing a felony. Even if they did see him exiting the property there was no indication that he intended to commit a crime.

From what McMichaels described, he believed Arbery "may" have been responsible for a burglary in the area in the previous weeks but after two months no evidence has surfaced.

Investigators stated that after just 36 hours, they had enough probable cause to issue warrants for felony murder. Where is the evidence that a citizens arrest was justified?

Imo
 

Hope4More

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Websleuths TOS does not allow nicknames or derogatory terms for case players. Please use proper names or initials for all individuals.

Thanks.

Sorry. I'll do better, though in the case of the first 911 caller, I know his name but wasn't sure if was OK to use it, as it's redacted from the 911 records and hasn't otherwise been made public.
 

Longtime_lurker2019

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But they had no reason to suspect him of committing a felony. Even if they did see him exiting the property there was no indication that he intended to commit a crime.

From what McMichaels described, he believed Arbery "may" have been responsible for a burglary in the area in the previous weeks but after two months no evidence has surfaced.

Investigators stated that after just 36 hours, they had enough probable cause to issue warrants for felony murder. Where is the evidence that a citizens arrest was justified?

Imo

Yes the officers wanted to arrest. Huh. Almost like those trained to investigate, did. None of us can say with certainty what the outcome will be. I can say I hope justice is served. In my eyes justice is the murder suspects being held accountable. Justice is when there is a full accounting by BOTH DAs who would not prosecute. Justice will come when the rot in that town is brought to light. Also, my heart hurts. Such a wanton disregard for other humans. In action by the perpetrators of this killing and in words since. I wonder why some people in general need so badly to excuse the actions of the murder suspects?
 

LietKynes

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Whoever made the 911 call reported that Arbery had gone into the house under construction. And if you watch the video, Arbery walked up the road to the house and then came out a few minutes later running.

So they've seen him enter someone else's property, then come out at a run.

I think there is a case to say that the citizens arrest was legal. Dumb, but legal. And I'm afraid if the citizens arrest was legal, so was the shooting.
bbm
About that 'running'.

Ahmaud may well have been running-- but after watching and re-watching multiple times, the CC camera is sped up the moment Ahmaud exits the under construction dwelling.

It goes from normal walking before... to skipping ahead and as if he's running like Usain Bolt.
But the clock counter at the upper left fast forwards.
There's a GA news site that shows the footage on youtube.
I'll link if it's msm.

Either there are time skips to save on the footage (think motion sensor detecting cameras, that activate and capture movement for a few seconds or minutes) or someone tinkered with the footage.

It would be helpful to have someone chime in here who works in that field, and has experience with installing a camera similar to the one that recorded Ahmaud entering and leaving the property.
 

Hope4More

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Does anyone have any thoughts on what role "Roddie" played in recording the incident. After watching tonight's interview with Chris Cuomo on CNN I am thinking Roddie was recording the incident either as a potential witness to a crime or because he wanted to use it as evidence against the father and son team.

What isn't known is how and why Roddie happened to be on Burford Road just after the pursuit got underway, and if he blocked AA there intentionally (McMichael's claim), or accidentally, somehow (what Roddy implies).

There isn't any possibility that Roddy accidentally
turned around on Burford, drove a few yards on Satilla Drive, then turned onto Holmes and drove a fair distance, all coincidentally right behind a fleeing AA and Travis's truck.

Roddy definitely chose to follow AA, MM, and Travis. Why? He doesn't seem to have been the 911 caller #2. If he believed he was witnessing a crime unfold, why didn't he call 911? He had his cell phone in hand. He was recording the video on it. What kind of person would record a crime in progress in order to use it as evidence against the perpetrators of a crime he might
have helped prevent?

With what we know, with much still missing, my best guess is that at minimum and assuming the best of him, Roddy believed MM and Travis were chasing after a burglar, had no problem with that, and was making a recording of AA fleeing the scene, to provide it as evidence to LE when they showed up to arrest AA.
 
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