GA GA - College Park, BlkMale UP649, 35-50, related to slain FL girl, Dec'95

Discussion in 'The Unidentified' started by Kymistry35, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. Kymistry35

    Kymistry35 It's never to late to be who you could have been

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    Very strange case....two bodies found years apart and dna proves that they are related.

    The Doe Network:
    Case File 177UMGA
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/177umga.html

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Reconstructions of victim by Marla Lawson
    Unidentified Black Male
    • Located on December 27, 1995 in College Park, Fulton County, Georgia.
    • State of Remains: Skeletal
    • Investigators believe the bones were there for a year at least.


    Vital Statistics

    • Estimated age: 35 - 45 years old
    • Approximate Height and Weight: 5'6 - 5'9"
    • Dentals: There were some teeth still in the skull.
    • Clothing: He was wearing a long sleeved blue shirt with red / gray / green / blue stripes; a heavy blue coat with gray lining and gray/dark brown knit pants. A blue plastic comb was found in his possession.

    Case History
    The victim was found in a wooded area near Godby Road and Old National Highway in College Park, Georgia, in an area frequented by druggies and homeless. Investigators found bones scattered over an area 50 feet across.
    DNA analysis indicates that he may be a biological relative of an unidentified African-American female who was found in Screven County, Georgia.

    Investigators
    If you have any information concerning this case, please contact:
    Fulton Co. Medical Examiner's Office
    404-730-4400
    Email
    Agency Case Number:
    95-2465
    NCIC Number:
    U-172203198
    Please refer to this number when contacting any agency with information regarding this case.
    Source Information:
    FCMEO
    Georgia Bureau of Investigation




    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]The Doe Network - Hot Case # 290**[/FONT]

    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Can You Help Identify these Remains [/FONT]
    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]from Screven County, Georgia? [/FONT]

    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Date Located [/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]December 6, 1986 [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Location Found[/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Screven County, Georgia[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Date of Death [/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Unknown [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Cause of Death [/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Unknown[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Description (Estimates))[/FONT]
    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Race/Gender[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Age[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Height[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Unknown/Female [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]10-15 years old [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]5'2" - 5'6" [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Weight[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Eye Color/[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Hair Color[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]90-120 lbs. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Unknown [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Unknown[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Fingerprints[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Dental[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]DNA[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Not available due to skeletal remains [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]No teeth located [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Not available[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Clothing[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Condition of Remains [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Knit, crew neck shirt; 22 inch waist panties; size 32 bra. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Partial skeleton. Only a partial skull with no facial bones.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Case Details:[/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]The partial remains of this female were found in Screven County, Georgia on December 6, 1986. Very little information about her is available. The height, weight, and age are all estimates. [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Investigating Agency Information[/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Case #:[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Agency :[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Phone :[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]NCIC #: U-542501423 [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Georgia Bureau of Investigation [/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=-1][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Statesboro [/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]912-871-1121 </B>[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]If you have any information regarding this unidentified person[/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Please contact the Agency listed with any information. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL]Source Information:[/FONT][FONT=HELVETICA,ARIAL][SIZE=-1]Georgia Bureau of Investigation [/SIZE][/FONT]
     
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  3. Kymistry35

    Kymistry35 It's never to late to be who you could have been

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    Just wanted to bump this one up.
     
  4. Alice253

    Alice253 Live Every Moment

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    Very strange case. Do you think the man could be the father of the girl? Is it possible he killed her, then years later, himself? An uncle, perhaps?
     
  5. Autumn2004

    Autumn2004 Inactive

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    Wow, this reminds me of a nora roberts novel. Carolina Moon is the name of the book and the killer killed again at the same time every 10 years to relive the murder. Yeah I read romance novels :blushing:
     
  6. Kimster

    Kimster Former Member

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    Giving this gentleman a :bump:. I didn't find anything new about him. If someone can find him on NamUS, please post it. :tyou:
     
  7. Donjeta

    Donjeta Adji Desir, missing from Florida

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    Wait, what? Are we sure that it's these two cases that are biologically related, and not some other female from Screven county?

    The reason I'm asking is, DN says that there is no DNA available for her.
    http://www.doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase290.html
     
  8. Kimster

    Kimster Former Member

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    Well, isn't THAT interesting? But his profile says "DNA analysis indicates that he may be a biological relative of an unidentified African-American female who was found in Screven County, Georgia. "
     
  9. Donjeta

    Donjeta Adji Desir, missing from Florida

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    The African American part doesn't really fit HC 290 either because her race is unknown.
     
  10. zinc

    zinc Member

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    Here are the NamUs and Doe Network links together. Also, note that they may possibly have DNA on file for the UID female, but without having recorded it in NamUs proper.

    Unidentified black male
    Located on December 27, 1995 in College Park, Fulton County, Georgia
    http://gbi.georgia.gov/00/case_detail/0,2695,67862954_89278958_89647272,00.html

    NamUs UP # 649
    https://identifyus.org/cases/649

    The Doe Network: Case File 177UMGA
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/177umga.html


    Unidentified unknown race female
    Located on December 6, 1986 in Screven County, Georgia
    http://gbi.georgia.gov/00/case_detail/0,2695,67862954_89278958_89651190,00.html

    NamUs UP # 4702
    https://identifyus.org/cases/4702

    The Doe Network: Hot Case 290
    http://www.doenetwork.org/hot/hotcase290.html


    For the UID female, there are inconsistencies in the reported extent of the remains between the NamUs posting and the Doe Network entry. NamUs says "All parts recovered." If the Screven County Coroner's Office does truly only have a partial skull fragment with no intact maxilla or mandible (upper jaw or lower jaw), I would take seriously the statement that the height, weight, and age of the UID female &#8212; perhaps even the sex, unless they have DNA after all &#8212; are pretty rough estimates.

    I know very little about forensic anthropology, but my understanding is that when dealing with a limited skull fragment from a probable juvenile, out of height, weight, age, and sex, the one most likely to be correctly estimated is age. Age can be estimated from the degree of closure of the cranial sutures. The different parts of our skull harden and fuse together as we grow older.

    If you have a larger portion of the skull (or, obviously, if you can get DNA), you can appraise the sex with 70-90% accuracy, but that's harder to do when you have a fragment from someone who may not have gone through puberty yet.

    Maybe one of the resident "amateur experts" like Carl can correct or clarify, if they're reading.

    If the UID male has clear African-American traits and the UID female is known via DNA to be a biological relative, I can see why Doe might carelessly refer to her as African-American. But they shouldn't do that without the coroner's independent appraisal. Race is more complicated than that.
     
  11. zinc

    zinc Member

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    Here is an obvious possible that I hope to Pete was immediately checked against the UID female:

    NamUs MP # 3982
    https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/3982/

    The Charley Project: Catrina Renee Jackson
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/j/jackson_catrina.html

    The Doe Network: Catrina Renee Jackson - Case File 271DFGA
    http://doenetwork.org/cases/271dfga.html

    Missing since May 30, 1986 from Sylvania, Screven County, Georgia
    Classification: Non-Family Abduction
    Date Of Birth: February 11, 1973
    Age at Time of Disappearance: 13 years old
    Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'3; 120 pounds
    Distinguishing Characteristics: White female. Brown hair; hazel eyes. Her ears are pierced.


    And here are a couple more:

    The Charley Project: Sherry Lynn Marler
    Missing since June 6, 1984 from Greenville, Alabama
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/marler_sherry.html

    The Charley Project: Mary Jo Burnette
    Missing since June 1, 1984 from Rockford, Alabama
    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/burnette_mary.html
     
  12. Irish_Eyes

    Irish_Eyes New Member

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    I know that it's not as likely that the gender is wrong. Chances are, this unidentified man is probably a man. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to suggest Diane Hollins and her 14 year old daughter Tammy, two black females who went missing in 1979 from Florida...
     
  13. outofthedark

    outofthedark Lyle Stevik's FB Hostess

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    This has an interesting twist to it. Can the DNA analysis determine what their relationship would be?
     
  14. zinc

    zinc Member

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    The 1995 College Park, Fulton County, Georgia UID is (almost certainly) male, as the NamUs profile says "Male DNA detected."
     
  15. zinc

    zinc Member

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    Coming back to this suggestion...

    Tammy Hollins has been found deceased, per NCMEC a few days ago.

    FL FL - Diane (31) & Tammy (14 - deceased) Hollins, Daytona Beach, 11 June 1979 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


    I noticed that NamUs UP # 4702 (the UID young female) was also taken down within the last couple of days. Could be coincidental, but it makes you wonder. Anybody know? Nothing is said about Tammy's mother Diane.

    Interestingly, neither the UID male (?) nor the UID young female are or were on Georgia Bureau of Investigation's revamped listing of unidentified decedents, which has been up since at least January. If that was intentional, the IDs of both might already be known.

    Both UIDs are still on Doe Network. The young female is now 977UFGA, formerly HC 290. The male's entry as NamUs UP # 649 remains up.
     
  16. Irish_Eyes

    Irish_Eyes New Member

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    Wow thanks zinc. I wonder if Diane and her daughter were found or just Diane. I also now wonder wyy rhe NAMUS uid female is down.
     
  17. zinc

    zinc Member

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    The girl UID is indeed Tammy Hollins, and it sounds like law enforcement has had a hunch about it for some twenty years. Good call, Irish_Eyes.

    No answers about her mother Diane, nor about the original subject of this thread, the male UID.

    From the MP thread.
    FL FL - Diane (31) & Tammy (14 - deceased) Hollins, Daytona Beach, 11 June 1979 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


    I said this in the other thread:

    The main obstacle there is of course budget :( , and to a lesser extent just political inertia.
     
  18. Irish_Eyes

    Irish_Eyes New Member

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    Wow, thanks zinc for the update. The weirdness continues because the link you posted already seems to be taken down. ???
     
  19. zinc

    zinc Member

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  20. CarlK90245

    CarlK90245 UID Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I have a feeling that they botched the gender assessment on this UID, and it is actually Diane Holllins. The facial shape is pretty consistent.

    Who else would it be, if "he" is supposedly proven to be biologically related to Tammy Hollins? They located Tammy's father alive.

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  21. zinc

    zinc Member

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    I thought a little about this a while back. For the UID male they have both mtDNA and nucDNA, with "Male DNA detected" (cf. the Google cache of NamUs UP # 649, at least as long as it's up). From the news article above I conclude they have both mtDNA and nucDNA for the girl UID. Their degree of relatedness has always been put vaguely:
    Based on that I originally decided it's most likely that they found a mtDNA match between the two UIDs, and no more. Some profiles in the mitochondrial DNA database the FBI uses for crude frequency comparison occur in up to a few percent of the population. When you consider testing within subpopulations (e.g., African-Americans born within a few hundred miles of one another in the far Southeast after about WWII), I bet the probability of making a mtDNA hit between two people who might not recognize each other as relatives is even higher.

    But there are other possibilities. I do think law enforcement knows more about the identification of the male UID than they're saying, based on his (?) not being on the GBI UID site anymore. So the link might be closer than just mtDNA, possibly mtDNA and some overlap in nucDNA STR loci, now that we might be able to assume they have nucDNA for both. I'd think in that case they would also be avidly comparing Diane Hollins' sisters' and Tammy's father's DNA to the male UID's as well as getting samples from other biological relatives of Diane Hollins. Maybe they have.

    Or if you want to get weird,
    With regards to that "(almost certainly)," as far as I know, confusion from forensic contamination or genetic mosaicism/chimerism* isn't totally unthinkable. I'm not up on the details of contamination accounting, but I know chimerism has caused issues in the past and I don't know how much care state crime labs can or do take to mitigate it.

    A long-winded way to say I don't think it's completely unreasonable to wonder if that isn't Diane Hollins after all.

    * For interested parties, a quick recent look at mosaicism and chimerism in humans,
    The New York Times: DNA Double Take
    Your DNA and identity are not as entwined as once thought. In fact, most people have multiple genomes floating around, from mutations and remnants of pregnancies or twins.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/17/science/dna-double-take.html?pagewanted=all
     

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