GA: Deborah (Debbie) Collier 10 Sept 2022 autopsy implies foul play

[Cedars]

q

^^rsbm

I'm afraid that concerns for public safety will be forced to take seats further back in the bus as agencies enforce privacy rules due to the increased use of social media, TikTok, etc. where unexplained deaths are being used as entertainment.

I'm thinking about the death of Nicola Bulley in Northern England where authorities had to close airspace during her recent funeral service and burial so that she could be honored privately.

This case was about a woman that did what she's done thousands of times before -- drop the kids off at school, cross the road (from the school) to walk the dog on a park trail along a river, and vanished for 3 weeks until her body was recovered from the river-- less than a mile from where she was last seen.

Police were certain from the beginning that she never left the park, no evidence of foul play, and she had to be in the water but the conspiracies about how and when she entered the water are over the top. And it doesn't help that UK employs an inquest to determine the cause of death which is not scheduled until June! MOO

Yes I checked in on that. It seemed like an outbreak of mass hysteria.

But then, didn't police reveal details that normally would be kept private, to quieten things down?

JMO

 

[Seattle1]

q
Yes I checked in on that. It seemed like an outbreak of mass hysteria.

But then, didn't police reveal details that normally would be kept private, to quieten things down?

JMO

Police couldn't win here.

It was public record there was a police call to the residence a couple of weeks before she disappeared, and rumors were flying that the call was about her partner (who was being accused on SM of disappearing the victim). Police revealed the call was a welfare check on the victim and she was considered at risk because she had recently started drinking again.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Interesting info. Thanks to @Seattle1 for opening the new thread. I never did believe the suicide finding, but this really has to be quite miserable for her family to still be dealing with this, after all this time. I can only hope if somehow it's determined it wasn't actually suicide, a fuller and more comprehensive investigation would be done.

 

[Seattle1]

@Seattle1 I think you meant that for the Nicola Bulley thread?

Thanks, @Auntie Cipation. The post was in response to OP's question about NB's case.

 

[everlearning]

Thank you, @Seattle1 for opening a thread. I'm a middle-aged woman. I'm not going to take my clothes off, knowing others will find me. That never seemed plausible that a middle-aged woman wanted to be found naked. And why fire when she had pills? Did she take all the pills and didn't get the results she wanted and then set herself on fire? It is good to have another set of eyes on this. I was never comfortable with the suicide determination.

 

[Seattle1]

Thank you, @Seattle1 for opening a thread. I'm a middle-aged woman. I'm not going to take my clothes off, knowing others will find me. That never seemed plausible that a middle-aged woman wanted to be found naked. And why fire when she had pills? Did she take all the pills and didn't get the results she wanted and then set herself on fire? It is good to have another set of eyes on this. I was never comfortable with the suicide determination.

Yes! I can't get past reading 80% of her body and head burned. She was so careful of her appearance and wanted to burn her face too? I hope authorities can come back and say they found evidence she had a psychotic break and acted out of her mind. JMO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Thanks, @Auntie Cipation. The post was in response to OP's question about NB's case.

Apologies. I didn't look far enough back upthread!

I deleted my post, feel free to edit my words out of yours if you wish.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

One of the things I found to be extremely odd was the ME's conclusion that DC died from inhaling super heated gases AND hydrocodone " intoxication ". Intoxication is not a cause of death. Overdose or alcohol poisoning, yes. Intoxication ? Not that I've ever seen. Intoxication may have contributed to the circumstances that lead to the lethal inhalation of super heated gases, but it is not an actual cause of death.

(Note: I have not read the actual autopsy reports. I am simply going by what msm has reported. Just wanted to clarify that. )

 

[asmi106082]

One of the things I found to be extremely odd was the ME's conclusion that DC died from inhaling super heated gases AND hydrocodone " intoxication ". Intoxication is not a cause of death. Overdose or alcohol poisoning, yes. Intoxication ? Not that I've ever seen. Intoxication may have contributed to the circumstances that lead to the lethal inhalation of super heated gases, but it is not an actual cause of death.

(Note: I have not read the actual autopsy reports. I am simply going by what msm has reported. Just wanted to clarify that. )

I also read that she had been prescribed painkillers for a long term issue (knees maybe??) and so even though the toxicology shows intoxication, if she was taking those pills for a long time, prescribed, her tolerance could have been very high. For example, what would be intoxicating to someone who never took painkillers would not be to a regular user who had already built up a tolerance.
IMO I don’t believe she overdosed or was even intoxicated by the pills. I think she had high levels in her blood because of the prescription she had been taking.
MOO I do NOT believe she killed herself.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I also read that she had been prescribed painkillers for a long term issue (knees maybe??) and so even though the toxicology shows intoxication, if she was taking those pills for a long time, prescribed, her tolerance could have been very high. For example, what would be intoxicating to someone who never took painkillers would not be to a regular user who had already built up a tolerance.
IMO I don’t believe she overdosed or was even intoxicated by the pills. I think she had high levels in her blood because of the prescription she had been taking.
MOO I do NOT believe she killed herself.

I have felt the same.... and feel the final report should have not stated "intoxication" at all. Older adults are often prescribed the pain killers and have no "intoxication" behavior at all. I kindof wish one of the kids would come out to question this........

 

[Sundog]

I also read that she had been prescribed painkillers for a long term issue (knees maybe??) and so even though the toxicology shows intoxication, if she was taking those pills for a long time, prescribed, her tolerance could have been very high. For example, what would be intoxicating to someone who never took painkillers would not be to a regular user who had already built up a tolerance.
IMO I don’t believe she overdosed or was even intoxicated by the pills. I think she had high levels in her blood because of the prescription she had been taking.
MOO I do NOT believe she killed herself.

I think LE would have provided that information to the ME and reviewed DC's prescription history from her medical providers. They would know how long she had been taking opioids and at what strength, and therefore the ME would have been able to take into consideration the issue of tolerance. JMO.

 

[Seattle1]

One of the things I found to be extremely odd was the ME's conclusion that DC died from inhaling super heated gases AND hydrocodone " intoxication ". Intoxication is not a cause of death. Overdose or alcohol poisoning, yes. Intoxication ? Not that I've ever seen. Intoxication may have contributed to the circumstances that lead to the lethal inhalation of super heated gases, but it is not an actual cause of death.

(Note: I have not read the actual autopsy reports. I am simply going by what msm has reported. Just wanted to clarify that. )

I interpreted this as a contributing factor but I agree the wording here probably a poor choice because the level of Rx tested in DC may have been a therapeutic amount for her condition and longtime use. In other words, not a fatal dosage. JMO

 

[Synergizer Bunny]

Color me cynical. I always suspected that this was a homicide and that Debbie did not type that text. The text was typed by someone involved to throw off the investigation. I have no idea if the effort will be put forth to get justice for this poor woman. Just my speculation, though.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I interpreted this as a contributing factor but I agree the wording here probably a poor choice because the level of Rx tested in DC may have been a therapeutic amount for her condition and longtime use. In other words, not a fatal dosage. JMO

I wonder if the implication was intended to be that the "intoxication" was sufficient to affect her decisionmaking process.

Personally I still don't think it was suicide.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

If I am washing the siding of my house in flip flops, and the flip flops get wet and cause me to slip and fall and suffer a lethal brain injury, would you expect my autopsy report to list my cause of death as traumatic brain injury and flip flops ? I mean, I realize that's an extreme analogy, but to the best of my knowledge, in forensic pathology "cause of death " has a very specific meaning. It is defined as natural disease or injury that leads to physiologic changes resulting in death. This reads like " cause of death: drunk and..."

JMO

 

[Laughing]

If I am washing the siding of my house in flip flops, and the flip flops get wet and cause me to slip and fall and suffer a lethal brain injury, would you expect my autopsy report to list my cause of death as traumatic brain injury and flip flops ? I mean, I realize that's an extreme analogy, but to the best of my knowledge, in forensic pathology "cause of death " has a very specific meaning. It is defined as natural disease or injury that leads to physiologic changes resulting in death. This reads like " cause of death: drunk and..."

JMO

or, Death by Misadventure?

Probably statistically unlikely in we older ladies....

 

[Ontario Mom]

Has anyone seen anything in the MSM regarding how her family members are reacting to this news?

 

[Laughing]

Has anyone seen anything in the MSM regarding how her family members are reacting to this news?

Crickets....

 

[Seattle1]

The conclusion by authorities has not changed.

Cause of Death: Inhalation of Superheated Gases, Thermal Injuries, and Hydrocodone Intoxication, and Manner of Death: self-inflicted /suicide.

^^rsbm

I checked with my BIL, a medical examiner, and he added some needed clarity.

As he explained, without any knowledge of the physical examination, we are only seeing a few words here or the summarized cause of death.

In this case, in the order of importance, DC's cause of death was primarily due to the inhalation of superheated gases [burns your respiratory tract, typically, respiratory arrest, cardiac arrest, and death], Thermal Injuries [skin injuries by excessive heat], and Hydrocodone Intoxication [under the influence of hydrocodone] -- not to be confused with hydrocodone toxicity. And each of the above contributed to DC's death.

When oxygen levels are at:

• 21 percent .... an individual experiences: .... normal outside air,
• 17 percent .... impaired judgment and coordination,
• 12 percent .....headache, dizziness, nausea, fatigue,
• 9 percent ..... unconsciousness,
• 6 percent ..... respiratory arrest, cardiac arrest, death.

IMO, seems we all applied layman's definitions to a medical determination.