Missing pregnant Shannon Watts and her two daughter's bodies found, husband arrested
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GUILTY GA - Lauren Giddings, 27, Macon, 26 June 2011 #11

Discussion in 'Recently Sentenced and Beyond' started by bessie, Sep 1, 2011.

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  1. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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  2. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Sorry I had to copy them this way, but if I don't, they will all fall ahead of the OP.


     
  3. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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  4. PsychoMom

    PsychoMom Verified expert in mental health

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    Okay, I found this:
    http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/12/cadaver-dogs-how-reliable-are-they-at-detecting-death/
    http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/detectiondogs.shtml
    So, this is saying that even without a body touching the surface of anything, the dogs can detect decomp in an area. Is that correct? Basically, even without direct contact, the dogs can get the decomp scent. Like in the back bedroom of McD's apartment. Correct?
     
  5. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    Don't know if I know the science to answer the question ... That article is one bessie posted a while back (or is based on the same study she posted, rather) and I brought it up the other day when we were pondering a question similar to yours. bessie pointed out that though the remains in the study were wrapped in cotton blankets, they were (albeit through the blankets) in contact with the carpet for a period of time... so I just am not sure yet.
     
  6. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    Also, if I'm remembering correctly, the degree of decomposition -- how long the person has been dead -- is also a factor
     
  7. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    I believe the pdf about the study is here, if you want more of the science:

    http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg%201998.pdf

    It really is an interesting study -- the pdf is about 5 pages, I think, and all interesting, and the "Discussion" section sort of wraps it all up and includes some interesting comments about the place of HRD dogs in investigations
     
  8. PsychoMom

    PsychoMom Verified expert in mental health

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    Checking your article next. I found this one: http://www.forensicsinthenews.com/Summer-O8-ExaminerPDFs/SearchDogs.pdf
    This article does say they use air-scenting.
     
  9. SouthernKate

    SouthernKate New Member

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    With the new article about the gloves belonging to BB, I really think they are going to turn out to be unrelated to the case. Plus, can't a quick test determine if the substance really is blood? And it's been almost a week since LE went to retrieve the gloves.

    I know that the glove info at the hearing was interesting, to me at least, because it's the only new tidbit we really got. So, I wanted something to come from them - new evidence, possibly something concrete to tie McD to the murder, but I'm guessing that is not meant to be. I could be wrong and maybe they have something, but I'm definitely thinking that with all the evidence collected, LE would surely (and hopefully) have found them in their searches.

    Buford sure can get out minds spinning though. :)
     
  10. Backwoods

    Backwoods New Member

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    I posted in the earlier thread and don't think it got transferred over (and shouldn't have, as it was not an earth-shattering post!) that the article reads to me like the reporters themselves haven't gotten all the answers but are just throwing whatever they were able to get on out to the public -- "keep 'em reading"!
     
  11. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Yes, air scenting where a cadaver is present. That's very different from air scenting where no cadaver is present, nor a surface which made contact with the cadaver.
     
  12. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    But how difficult would it have been to ask, "Are they your gloves?", "Did you leave them on the dryer?", and "Was it blood or paint on the gloves?" Actually, they probably did ask those questions, but the writing isn't clear.
     
  13. PsychoMom

    PsychoMom Verified expert in mental health

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    I guess what I am asking is if the body did not touch a surface in McD's apartment, would the odor still have been there for the dogs? It would have to be in the air, I would think, if he used some barrier to prevent the body from touching surfaces.
     
  14. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Yep. That's the question. A few of us have been trying to pinpoint the answer, but we haven't found it yet.
    Your question's a little different, though. If the body was in his apartment, it would have to have come into contact with a surface. The question we've pondered is whether the scent could be carried from place to place in the absence of a body. In other words, you walk into an apartment where a corpse was present, will the undetectable odor permeate your clothing, be transmitted by you to another location, and remain detectable to cadaver dogs in that location after you are gone?
     
  15. PsychoMom

    PsychoMom Verified expert in mental health

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    Interesting. I am still searching. I think I might go ask the half dozen cops sitting outside my patient's door. They might have an answer tonight. They aren't that busy at the moment.
     
  16. SmoothOperator

    SmoothOperator Sadly what connects all these puzzles is that ther

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    More on the actual HRD/cadaver dogs.. An actual study done.. Results that a dog alerted on human remains As soon as the deceased only having been dead an hour and 25mins.. When the human body is deceased it immediately begins to decompose but but yet as far as scent goes it still will give off a live scent for a short period of time.. Hence the atudy to attempt to pinpoint about the time after death does the scent change that of deceased human remains.. The earliest was one hour 25 mins after death but the amount of time that the digs most consistently alerted on the deceased remains was 2.5-3hrs..
    More at link:
     
  17. PsychoMom

    PsychoMom Verified expert in mental health

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    Actually, I was thinking if the body were on a surface that is no longer there, such as plastic, would the scent still be there. If the body and the plastic barrier were no longer present, would there be a scent.

    So, according to the cops, it depends. Big help guys! lol! If the dog is trained to hit scents, then it will hit scents and odor from the air. If it is trained to hit objects, it will only hit if there is some remaining particle of the body.

    Interestingly, we had a case up here where a body was suspected of being in the water. The dogs kept hitting on one particular area over and over again. They found the body elsewhere, but where the dogs had been hitting, they found a bunch of discarded dirty diapers. The dogs hit on the odor of the diapers as something from a decomposing body. And those were most likely the same dogs from Villa Rica considering we are much closer to them than Macon is.

    The officers also stated if the dogs were using scent to find the area of decomposition, the scent could travel into other areas based on the movement of the flow of air and other elements, such as humidity and temperature. Makes for some food for thought.
     
  18. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    Trying to keep up- and not sure about all of the articles, have not had a chance to catch up- but NO. An HRD dog should not alert on anything other than the deposited scent of human remains. Human remains might be a body, or it might be part of a body, or it might be trace scent evidence of a body. HR scent is deposited- only trace of the scent is airborn.

    HRD dogs should accurately alert on only a deposit of HR scent.
     
  19. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    Not unless you come into some sort of physical contact with human remains- and there is physical transference of biological matter.

    A dog might smell ya- but an HRD dog shouldn't alert, unless biological matter is present.
     
  20. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    Properly trained HRD dogs should NOT be hitting on anything other than decomp. Dirty diapers are not decomp, unless there are trace amounts of decomp ON them.
    Human remains are exactly that- remains of humans. There has to be biological human remains present for an HRD dog to alert accurately.

    That said- there would have to be trace human remains left behind (no matter the substrate) in order to have an accurate and verified hit from an HRD dog.
     
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