Garrote,Scarves,Wikipedia

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Eagle1, Nov 5, 2005.

  1. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    The Garrote Originated in Hindu-MUSLIM Kali cult (faction?) called The Thuggee, a silent method of robbery. At some point they began using scarves. And were only connected to the seven muslim tribes for a relatively short time, I gather from these wikipedia articles.

    Garroting became an execution method in many countries. Franco in Spain was still using it as recently as 1974.

    Philippines used the method even after it became an American colony in 1898.

    The Inca emporer was executed this way. Involved a restraining seat, tightning of a device around the neck, and sometimes a blade to cut the spine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee "Indian cult sometimes described as the world's first mafia." Operating from 1300's to 1900's. The word **** was incorporated into the English language during their occupation there.

    The Hindu's trace their origin to seven Muslim tribes, in the early beginning, and killing to rob was considered a religious duty by the groups of 10 to 200 infiltrating-the-wealthy Thuggee's, which not all Kali believers were.

    There was a film, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, 1984, and a few other movies, I never heard of, The Deceivers, 1988, only 17 yrs ago, etc. See the link if interested. It was modified Nov 4, 2005, and has a link to a list of beauty pageant contestants of all ages in alphabetical order, including JonBenet.

    It's normal, of course, to invite relatives for Christmas, but an interesting coincidence that the FWs' new home was overcrowded this particular Christmas and that two of the guests allegedly belonged to a Kali cult in California, revivals of such cults not being much reported. Was Cox really watching a video or rerun of "Nick of Time", the whole evening, instead of chatting with his host and the other guests? Calls for speculation, I know.

    "Bind" the sacrifice, and BTK's "Bind, Torture, Kill" just may have been motto's for similar cults? I didn't look up Celtic sacrifices at Wikipedia yet, but at least one internet poster who's studied it has had a theory about revivals of ancient cults. We don't really know for sure there were only 4 people in the Ramseys' house that night. Or that there was any cult, but all the "friends" who received matching scarves for Christmas seem to be lying awfully low. Turned away police at the door on the 23rd when JonBenet had probably attempted a 911 call after PROBABLY being molested. The coroners said an old injury was just about that old. I'm just asking about all this, not a theory, and as I'm always saying, I don't have one. All the facts just aren't in yet, no matter how many years it's been. Many cold cases are a lot older.
     
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  3. Zman

    Zman Former Member

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    Well I could read through the autopsy report again but its early and I don't feel like it right now.

    So maybe you can help me out and show me what injury and it's age you are posting about?
     
  4. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    The vaginal injury that they said was healing.

    You're not asking for an exact source, are you? Because it was so long ago when I read the books. It may be in all of them, in fact. Most likely Schiller's PMPT, especially. Sorry, I assumed everyone would remember that much.

    And here's a copy/paste of a post I've just made in HoldOnToYourHat's new thread re State Dept chronology of terrorist incidents, 70 pgs, PDF, to show I'm not insisting any particular cult did this. Maybe a cult and/or one of these. Whoever planned the JonBenet incident sure did manage to point in a lot of different directions.

    Re HoldOn's 70-Pg PDF Link

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Besides HoldOnToYourHat's 70-pg State Dept.report, there's also a link at the end of pg 70 to a page of 3 pie charts showing what kinds of incidents occurred where, in 1996 by some coincidence..

    http://www.state.gov/www.images/chart74.gif

    There were 6 kidnappings of hostages, dark purple slice of the pie, middle of the three charts. They don't seem to give any details. I think one was an American geologist.

    And because JR was stationed in the Philippines for a while, I printed out the 2nd page of Appendix A, mostly about the Philippines. Haven't completely read it yet. I may also copy/paste this post into my own new thread, "Garrote, Scarves,Wickipedia", about revival of ancient cult factions.

    Terrorists do like to claim credit, so, might there be a grain of truth in the RN? Not saying the R's and "friends" are or are not involved. I don't know. They could have been deceived.

    Most anything's possible. Not Martians. There's a Biblical Psalm that figures in the case,, so, just in case it might help some time, how about a touch of a prophecy too, that a pseudo-religous sociopath's duration, during the terms of 7 heads of state, causes "perplexity of nations", and he uses the violence of the terrorists as a cover, or, another translation, the violence of Lebanon covers him. (POSSIBLY meaning he caused the Marine Barracks bombing, where a cousin of mine was blown to bits and they just buried a box, another cousin said. So I'm interested in this for more than just JonBenet, the whole big picture, we are not meant to understand until it happens. He'll be caught.) According to A and E and History Channel documentaries, they've found Hitler, and Rabin's assassination, in the recently-discovered Bible Codes, also some future events, but no dates or hints of when they may happen. Scholars are taking it all rather seriously.
     
  5. Moab

    Moab Member

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    Do you have any links for any of this stuff?
    Do you have some proof there were more than just the Ramseys at home?
    Do you have a link about friends receiving matching scarves?
    JBR PROBABLY attempted a 9-1-1 call after PROBABLY being molested? Source?
    You said that "The coroners said an old injury was just about that old." WTF does that mean?[​IMG]
     
  6. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    It's been a long day, right, Moab? I mean for me too. I think all of your questions were answered to the best of my ability. The material about the Kali cult and The Thuggee faction of it stemming partly from the Muslims, was in Wikipedia, link right there, 5th paragraph.

    What injury that was healed? Zman asked the same thing right before you, and I explained that coroners said at autopsy time, a vaginal injury about 2 days old had been healing when she was reinjured with the paint brush.. That only a ridge remained of her hymen, at age 6!

    Evidently meaning something had been going on, probably when JR was out of town so much, I'm just guessing, because in, I believe Schiller's book, PMPT, JBR was telling the gardener she wished her daddy was home more, and started crying. She'd also cried at the party on the 23rd, probably when she got the 2-day-old vaginal injury, and the parents evidently didn't pay any attention. I'm speculating JBR tried to call 911 herself and someone grabbed the phone, concocted a story that he'd tried to call a hospitalized mother and dialed the number wrong.

    There's a whole thread about SCARVES.

    Re how many were actually in the house that night, Everyone keeps saying PR lies. So, what if the 4 people is just another lie, and all the "friends" had been up all night," in the same clothes", reason they could get there so fast and so early, probably wearing makeup and all. Just a new thought.

    I leave you to take it from there. I don't really know what all that could mean. The thread about scarves says Patsy gave them out as Xmas gifts, and then at Wikipedia about The Thuggee, I found they also used scarves.
     
  7. Zman

    Zman Former Member

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    As far as I know nothing exists in the autopsy about such an injury with those details.
     
  8. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    There's probably a thread here about the autopsy but I frankly don't know how to word or phrase search just the JBR forum.

    Anyone know where that is? I think Schiller, maybe all of the books, and it'd probably also be at ACandyRose' archives. I'll try to remember to come back with the link in case you dont have it bookmarked.

    Editing to add that you can just type www.ACandyRose.com into your browser to get to the archives, (hey, I made a link that will probably work) but I'm not reading all that again! :bang:
     
  9. Moab

    Moab Member

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    Whole lot of speculation there Eagle...first of all the coroner did not say JBR's vaginal injury was only two days old...you are making that up so it ties in to your she was molested at the party on the 23rd fantasy. Go read the autopsy again, or for the first time...whatever!
     
  10. Charlie

    Charlie New Member

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    didnt the autopsy say acute as well as chronic vaginal injury. Acute being within a day, and chronic being a few days before?
     
  11. Nuisanceposter

    Nuisanceposter Remembering Little Miss Christmas

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    The autopsy does say acute and chronic injuries. There's nothing to pinpoint the chronic injury to the 23rd, although the 911 call confusion is suspect. I can't see a six year old girl thinking to call 911 if she has been sexually abused, though, especially when a parent is there. Or at all. Kids that young don't usually think beyond their personal network of family and friends for assistance.
     
  12. Moab

    Moab Member

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    Hi Charlie,

    Here are the definitions...

    chron·ic (kr n k)adj.

    1. Of long duration; continuing: chronic money problems.
    2. Lasting for a long period of time or marked by frequent recurrence, as certain diseases: chronic colitis.
    3. Subject to a habit or pattern of behavior for a long time: a chronic liar.
    acute

    adj 1: having or experiencing a rapid onset and short but severe course; "acute appendicitis"; "the acute phase of the illness"; "acute patients" [ant: chronic] 2: extremely sharp or intense; "acute pain"; "felt acute annoyance"; "intense itching and burning" [syn: intense] 3: having or demonstrating ability to recognize or draw fine distinctions; "an acute observer of politics and politicians"; "incisive comments"; "icy knifelike reasoning"; "as sharp and incisive as the stroke of a fang"; "penetrating insight"; "frequent penetrative observations" [syn: discriminating, incisive, keen, knifelike, penetrating, penetrative, piercing, sharp] 4: of an angle; less than 90 degrees [ant: obtuse] 5: ending in a sharp point [syn: acuate, sharp, needlelike] 6: of critical importance and consequence; "an acute (or critical) lack of research funds" n : a mark (') placed above a vowel to indicate pronunciation [syn: acute accent, ague]

    The autopsy of JBR was done within 24 hours of her death, so yes, the vaginal injury described as acute would have been within hours of her death, and we know this from reading the rest of the autopsy as well, correct? I don’t believe the chronic refers to the 23rd in any way, shape or form.





    Do you have a link for anyone saying that Eagle? I would love for you to post it as I would certainly LOVE to read it! Maybe you are confused. Maybe the “acute” portion meant “within a certain number of hours”, which would make perfect sense, but certainly not the “chronic” reference. Chronic means long-term any way you deal those cards!
     
  13. Moab

    Moab Member

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    Excellent point, I can't see a 6-year-old calling 9-1-1 either. Both parents were there and her older brother was there.
     
  14. Charlie

    Charlie New Member

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    Excerpt Taken from: "who killed Jonbenet Ramsey by Cyril Wecht, M.D
    pAGE 94

    'Under the report [Autopsy] on the "vaginal muscosa", referring to the internal membranes of the vagina, Meyer had written, "All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The smallest peice of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is the birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen". Greek to the laymen, cystal clear to Cyril Wecht. That paragraph meant JonBenet had suffered a penetration of her vagina that had left its internal wall inflamed. The most telling clue for wecht was that the inflammation was "chronic". To a forensic pathologist, that unequivocal term meant the inflammation had not occured shortly before her death. It was not fresh. It had not been inflicted in the minutes before she died, or even the hours before her death. If she had died late on December 25th, something had caused this inflammation on December 22 or 23, and perhaps even earlier."
     
  15. Moab

    Moab Member

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    Charlie, I think the birefringent foreign material they found, indicates something was done to her that night, and they found it upon autopsy...but the chronic offerings meant it had been going on long-term.
     
  16. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Former Member

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    Thanks for translating the Greek. I'm sure you'll not mind if I've printed this out to share at another forum where we're on the same subject? And I do believe there's yet another passage, which mentions number of HOURS old the inflammation seems to be, don't know if it's by another ME or Dr. W., since it's been 9 yrs.
     
  17. Moab

    Moab Member

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    Here are both references Eagle. The one from Dr. Meyer who actually saw the body, and performed the autopsy, and the "hours" reference by Wecht who only saw photographs. Personally, when I want a diagnosis...I don't want it phoned-in. Although there is an "hours" reference, you mistook 2 hours to the positive to be actually +72 hours to the negative, but whatever floats your boat at the time, I guess.

    Dr. Meyer

    http://childsearch.us/site8/ramsey_autopsy_report.html



    "I have learned that the police called in three separate child sexual abuse experts," he reports. "They separately and independently came to the same conclusion that there was evidence of prior sexual abuse. Not that I needed anybody to hold my hand, but for saying that same thing I took abuse on national television from self-appointed Ramsey defenders and sycophants. But it's the most ridiculous thing in the world, a little girl with half of the hymen gone and she's dead, and you've got a tiny abrasion, a tiny contusion and a chronic inflammation of vaginal mucosa. That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier; we don't know how long, or how often it was repeated, but chronic means it wasn't from that night. This was a tragic, tragic accident. This was a game that had been played before."

    http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/cyril_wecht/6.html

     
  18. Zman

    Zman Former Member

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    Is anyone able to see how he draws this conclusion. How does he get from listing her injuries and then jumping to
    "That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier; we don't know how long, or how often it was repeated, but chronic means it wasn't from that night. This was a tragic, tragic accident. This was a game that had been played before."

    I see no support for this statement at all. It comes from nowhere. I keep reading it waiting for it to make sense.

     
  19. Moab

    Moab Member

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    Zman, I think Wecht is further interpreting Meyer's conclusions from the autopsy. This link indicated he looked at photos, and read the autopsy report, and elaborated. Perhaps he is better versed at this interpretation than you or I.
     
  20. aussiesheila

    aussiesheila Inactive

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    Zman,

    in answer to your question,

    after reading Meyer’s autopsy report and viewing some photos, Wecht commented:

    "..... a little girl with half of the hymen gone and she's dead, and you've got a tiny abrasion, a tiny contusion and a chronic inflammation of vaginal mucosa. That means it happened more than 72 hours earlier; we don't know how long, or how often it was repeated, but chronic means it wasn't from that night ...."



    I don’t know what the photos showed but the autopsy report stated that:


    The hymeneal orifice measured 1 x 1 cm.

    The hymen itself was represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions.

    The area of abrasion was present at approximately the 7:00 position and appeared to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen. On the right labia majora was a very faint area of violent discoloration measuring approximately one inch by three-eighths of an inch. Incision into the underlying subcutaneous tissue disclosed no hemorrhage.

    Microscopic sections of vaginal mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. the smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contain epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion.


    To restate and expand on what Wecht said:

    The presence of a large vaginal opening, only remnants of a hymen and chronic inflammation and vascular congestion along the entire length of the vaginal mucosa indicate that the vagina had been subjected to many instances of penetration which had been occurring over a long period of time prior to the night of her murder.

    The fresh abrasions made that night at the vaginal opening were very small and also superficial as the tissue underneath showed no haemorrhaging. This indicates that the penetration that occurred that night had not caused severe injuries as would be expected if she was a previously unabused child.
     
  21. Zman

    Zman Former Member

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    The only injury he lists that HAS to be old is chornic vaginal mucosa which can be looked up on many medical web sites and has more than one possible cause.
    He has the right to his opinion but really no reason to jump to the conclusion that JBR had been molested before that night.

    Except maybe attention and a book deal.
     

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