Garrote VS manual srangulation.

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by wengr, Feb 15, 2013.

  1. wengr

    wengr New Member

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    My thoughts on the garrote based on pure speculation:

    It's useless and likely only a prop.

    No way is it an actual AEA device.
    The person who constructed/applied it has no real knowledge of actual AEA devices - beyond maybe that they exist.

    There is no real reason for the paintbrush, and no real reason to break the paintbrush.

    So, what do we know which discounts the possibility that there was strangulation by hand or a different item prior to the application of the garrote?
    And, is there anywhere I can find a detailed diagram of the garrote construction?
     
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  3. wengr

    wengr New Member

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    One other thing about the cord which has always interested me is the amount of fraying to the ends. It has always seemed excessive to me for a cord that was recently cut for the purpose. Look at the commonly available pictures and compare the frayed ends to the area of the garrote that was cut for it's removal.
    You can see both ends of the wrist bindings, and some of one end of the garrote, and all three appear quite frayed. I would expect one end possibly frayed, or two at maximum. Is there any explanation for this?
     
  4. Peliman

    Peliman New Member

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    OTG put a good deal of work into this subject, took me a couple days to read through.

    [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117975"]Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
     
  5. Matt21

    Matt21 New Member

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    I'm guessing with manual strangulation there would be significant bruising all around Jonbenet's neck, and not cord marks. I think if she was strangled by hand, the injuries would have a much different appearance and would likely be obvious to the coroner...almost on sight.
     
  6. dodie20

    dodie20 New Member

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    IMO, the garotte might have been built so the killer didn't have to use his bare hands for the strangling...kind of a psychological distancing or removal from the act of murder. Another thing that I found interesting, was JB's neck was severely marked from the garotte, and in the ransom note, the author threatened to behead JonBenet. moo
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Manual strangulation could have been applied simply by restraining JonBenet by her shirt-collar, turtleneck anyone, the twisting effect or torque might result in her air-passage being compressed with JonBenet becoming unconcious and falling to the ground whacking her head?

    The following ligature and paintbrush-handle staging is intended to mask this, much as the wipe down and redressing in the size-12's is intended to mask the acute sexual assault.

    In both cases those staging knew the original injuries would be discovered, but they probably knew they had done enough to muddy the forensic waters.

    The above interpretation is based on the circumferential ligature furrow resulting from the application of the ligature and paintbrush-handle. There are other marks and abrasions on JonBenet's neck that to be consistent with ligature asphyxiation require special pleading.

    For years I have promoted the theory that the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene. This includes the injuries inflicted on JonBenet.

    It is Lou Smit that promoted the Intruder agenda as the vehicle for JonBenet's injuries and presentation.


    .
     
  8. midwest mama

    midwest mama New Member

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    I'm with Wecht on the 3-fold death steps. I think neck strangulation initially by a fabric of some sort, perhaps with the cord ligature in place, but not necessarily at this point. Molestation which produced scream, vaginal bleeding and pubic mess. Twisting of the fabric as a grab hold with JB facing, using right hand, causing semi-choke to consciousness, while bashing with the left hand into JB's skull. Once she dropped fully, then clean up which included body cleansing, redressing, leaving ligature in place (if already applied), tightening, but not quite fully. Perp thought she was dead from initial fabric choke and bash. Moved to place near paint tray, penetrated vagina with paintbrush to mask molestation which evoked a flex response from unconscious JB making perp realize the ligature would have to be fully tightened. Then, broke paintbrush tip off (JB cells, etc), broke bottom off and created stick to create garrote look. JB was "pulled back together (already wearing size 12's put on during redressing)" after vaginal intrusion, flipped over on her stomach, while wrapping the cord around again (it was long enough to wrap around twice), fully tightening ligature, (causing both white lines of blanching on JB's neck). End of cord was tied around stick catching hair because end of cord was close to neck from second wrap. Body relocated to WC, second wrap of ligature loosened.
     
  9. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    I cannot say better than otg already said years ago!...the only one thing I would like to add: when person dies from strangulation with the rope which has the knot on it - the knot itself should leave the distinctive mark on the neck (in addition to the furrow mark from the rope)... IMO, JB neck doesn't have mark from the knot.
     
  10. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    The garrote was pulled tight by WINDING it around her neck more than once. The knot was not functional as a noose, so it didn't slide and press against her skin in an obvious way. It is also VERY possible that when she was strangled the knot was in FRONT of her neck and was responsible for making that triangular red mark, where it pressed into her throat. Those marks are commonly found in strangulation victims and are caused by blood pooling under the skin at a pressure point.
     
  11. txsvicki

    txsvicki Active Member

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    Since the GJ did want to indict on child abuse leading to murder, I'm wondering if Jonbenet was grabbed in the front of her throat. There may he something about throat abrasions in all the facts that the public thinks are facts and all the secrets.
     
  12. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    wengr, I absolutely agree with all of your stated opinions about the “garrote”. However the cord which was used in construction of the “garrote” definitely contributed to JonBenet’s death. So the only thing that makes the ligature even remotely appear to be a “garrote” is indeed the attachment of it to the broken paintbrush. But as I have said before (and as you also state here), the stick on the end of the ligature serves absolutely no purpose -- its only purpose in being there is to confuse investigators from what actually happened.

    This is all, of course, simply my belief based on what I know. And I should say this is not based on any personal experience (I’ve never strangled anyone, I’ve never been strangled, nor have I known anyone who has done or been either). I will at the end of this post link some articles for anyone interested enough to read more on the subject.

    But to your question about the possibility that she might have been manually strangled before the ligature was applied, I think the answer is no. All we have to base that on is the few pictures that have been leaked out and the Autopsy Report written by the coroner.

    In these pictures, there is no apparent bruising that would usually be present when a victim is manually strangled. Yes, there is what appears on the surface to be bruised areas, but these areas don’t form a pattern that would be consistent with manual strangulation (the depth of these areas is also confirmed in the AR). Also there are no “crescent-shaped” fingernail marks that are often found when the fingertips are used, and which investigators are trained to look for. Information on this is available on the supplied links below.

    I don’t have the highest opinion of the abilities and practices of Dr. Meyer, but he was trained to look for certain things and perform certain procedures. In one of the links below, there are pictures of the dissection of a victim‘s throat (not for the squeamish). It shows the deep bruises that are found when someone has been manually strangled, and it is what a coroner looks for during the autopsy. This is what Meyer is speaking to in the following portion of his AR:
    "Neck: Dissection of the neck is performed after removal of the throacoabdominal organs and the brain. The anterior strap musculature of the neck is serially dissected. Multiple sections of the sternocleidomastoid muscle disclose no hemorrhages. Sections of the remainder of the strap musculature of the neck disclose no evidence of hemorrhage. Examination of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage and hyoid bone disclose no evidence of fracture or hemorrhage. Multiple cross sections of the tongue disclose no hemorrhage or traumatic injury. The thyroid gland weights 2 gm and is normal in appearance. Cut sections are finely lobular and red-tan. The trachea and larynx are lined by smooth pink-tan mucosa without intrinsic abnormalities."

    What are you looking for? Details of what was found on JonBenet’s body, or a real garrote?


    The fraying of this type of cord is from two things: tension on the cord at the time it is cut (and actually, the length of cord under tension is a factor in this also), and the device that is used to do the cutting (which, depending on its sharpness/dullness, can increase the tension and pull on the individual threads within the cord). At FFJ, cynic has done extensive and very impressive research into this. Here are two links to some of his work:

    [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=189584"]Stansport nylon utility cord - Forums For Justice[/ame]


    [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?p=189214#post189214"]How were the ligature cords cut and the paintbrush handle broken? - Forums For Justice[/ame]



    What this information tells you about this crime is up to you to interpret. But knowing it is essential to understanding what may or could have happened.


    One other point (and this is since
    UKGuy brought it up) on the subject of manual vs. ligature... Technically, if an article of clothing is used (even if it is a collar being twisted), it is considered a ligature strangulation. Manual strangulation requires the use of no device other than the assailant’s extremities (hands usually, but also arms, feet, or legs).

    Here are links to some articles which may be helpful if you’d like to look into any of this yourself.
    Be forewarned that the second group of links contain images that are very graphic. I know some here may not feel comfortable seeing them, which is why I try not to post the pictures I sometimes refer to, but will instead provide a link if you so choose to view them.

    No mages included:

    http://strangulation.askdefine.com/

    http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4351833...nvestigation-and-Prosecution-of-Strangulation

    http://lifeloom.com/II4Aggrawal.htm
    (Very interesting individual case with several relevant details given)
    http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/ortner/docs/factsheet_strangulation.pdf


    Contains graphic images:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=dJ4xM76ZjRwC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
    (part relating to strangulation begins on Page 135)
    http://medicinembbs.blogspot.com/2011/08/asphyxial-deaths.html

    http://what-when-how.com/forensic-sciences/overview-3/

    https://nchdv.confex.com/recording/...7adf5df9fff0d3caf5cafe28f496/paper10792_1.pdf

    http://koronfelsforensicmedicine.blogspot.com/2011_07_01_archive.html
     
  13. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    wengr,
    Your technical point is well put. I use the term manual, to distinguish it from the ligature paintbrush-handle device.

    As per your technical remarks, I'll drop the use of manual and employ ligature from hereon.

    What you write serves to underline the thrust of my theory which is that most of the wine-cellar crime-scene has been staged.

    The R's were only required to to dump JonBenet as found into the wine-cellar then dial 911 screaming kidnapping.

    JonBenet's injuries appear to be staged to mask whatever took place prior to her being placed into the wine-cellar.

    That is the ligature paintbrush-handle was used to hide that JonBenet's shirt-collar was used to compress her neck. The red mark resulting from the point of pressure from her assailants knuckles or fist, as the shirt-collar was twisted tight.

    Similarly JonBenet was wiped down and redressed in the size-12's to hide the prior acute sexual assault, and present JonBenet as she was placed into bed, on returning from the White's.

    If you give it some consideration. The use of the ligature paintbrush-handle is completely redundant even as a staging element, since if JonBenet was being abducted, why ligature strangle her?

    That is the ligature paintbrush-handle asphyxiation is consistent with the intention to mask, hide any prior ligature asphyxiation. And to date it seems to have worked.


    .
     
  14. otg

    otg Reports of my death are greatly exagerated... but

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    I agree with much of what you say, UKG. Only slight disagreement over your term "most", when I would say, "much" -- as in "most of the wine-cellar crime-scene has been staged." I still think that this is where the initial "assault" occurred, and where JonBenet actually died.

    I also don't believe that any of the injuries to her neck are from anything other than the cord. You may recall that I tried to explain what I think caused the "red mark" in a thread of its own that has now, I guess, been long forgotten.

    I do agree with you though that much (or most) of the staging was done to hide what actually happened (or who was responsible) -- as much as they (and you know who I'm talking about here) were able to do. This would be the redressing, the wiping down to hide sexual aspect, adding the stick to the ligature, writing the RN, and calling even calling 911 -- all staging.
     
  15. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    DeeDee, as usual, you made me think hard:)...You said (BBM) 'winding around her neck more than once'. If rope was winding multiple times why are we seeng only ONE deep furrow? Are you suggesting that rope itself, while 'winding' around couple times, was PERFECTLY laying on the top of already damaged area on the neck?! Sorry, but I don't think so!...The rope wasn't flat and wide. To make multiple 'windings' precisely without getting over (on the bare undamaged skin of the neck!) while pulling the rope - IMO, is impossible. Maybe it's my fault and I didn't understand what you ment. But according to autopsy's photos - I saw only one deep furrow with the same wideness of skin damage all around the neck. And I saw the knot without blanched area and without abrasions underneath. Sorry again if I didn't understand you correctly...

    JMO
     
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    otg,
    I too concur with your theory, except the location where JonBenet expired.

    Your theory must explain why when staging that the wine-cellar was chosen over say her bedroom, or the breakfast-bar?

    I assert the wine-cellar was selected precisely because the R's changed their staging strategy from bedroom homicide to that of failed abduction.

    Abduction required a missing body hence JonBenet being placed in the wine-cellar and not simply left lying abused and asphyxiated in her bed!



    .
     
  17. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    Has anyone considered Patsy may have tied JonBenet's hands in a way to keep JonBenet from slapping at Patsy or otherwise immobilize JonBenet while Patsy carried out corporal cleansing?
     
  18. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    I would consider this idea if her hands would be really binded tide. But they weren't. If JB would be alife with these kind of 'bindings' she would be easily slip-out her hands from these loops. JMO.

    IMO, these staging 'bindings' has only one purpose: to add more tortureous appearance in conjunction with 'garotte'. It wasn't practical and it wasn't workable in any scenario.

    jmo
     
  19. wengr

    wengr New Member

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    Wow
    Just wow.
    The level of discourse here can be so impressive. OTG - I'm still working though your excellent previous thread as linked in post #3 above. It will take a few days before I can reconcile it all and collect my thoughts.
    Many thanks to all.
     
  20. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    There was one deep furrow, but there is more than one mark.
    To reply to a previous post- I also do not think this ligature strangulation was done to hide ANY previous strangulation. There is simply NO evidence of any prior strangulation. It is just not possible to strangle someone and not leave some kind of mark. The ONLY marks on her neck are the ligature furrows and petechiae.
     
  21. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    Time flies, isn't? Look how many confirmation of the facts we learned since otg original thread in 2010:

    - Kolar has confirmed to cynic during radio interview that urine stain was near WC...placing JB's last life moments right there, near WC. So, no more discussion needed in which room she dies;
    - Kolar book confirmed the fibers evidence inside of the 'garotte' knots and on the tape;
    - Kolar has cleared the importance (or should I say non-importance?) of DNA/tDNA findings...in addition to: where these 'non-identified' DNA/tDNA has been found = NOT on the rope.

    However, even today, the question of WHY the 'V'-shaped blanched line on JB's neck is so clearly visiable on autopsy photos still remains, IMO. WHAT could caused such a line and HOW it plays in JB's death?

    So, again IMO, we cannot dismiss this fact and ignore it with the statement 'the ONLY marks on her neck are the ligature furrows and petechiae'...There are much more to the picture...with all due respect....:seeya:

    jmo
     

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