Garrote

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by tuppence, Sep 8, 2006.

  1. tuppence

    tuppence New Member

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    An important clue which MUST be known by the medical examiner/police is whether the garrotte was what strangled JB.

    If the garrote did not cause the strangulation marks then the situation was DEFINITELY staged (strongly implicating the parents). If the garrote did cause the strangulation then the sex scene seems real.

    Shouldn't the ME be able to tell if the strangulation marks where likely caused by the garrote or not? Maybe I've been watching too much CSI but it seems like they should be able to tell the size/type of strangulation material.

    Does the John Karr arrest signal that they know the garrote really did cause the strangulation marks?
     
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  3. olive

    olive New Member

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    I'm pretty sure they've already found the ligature, and death thereof, were caused by the garrote.
     
  4. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    "If the garrote did not cause the strangulation marks then the situation was DEFINITELY staged (strongly implicating the parents). If the garrote did cause the strangulation then the sex scene seems real."

    You don't understand, tuppence. The garrote did cause the marks, yes. But that changes nothing. it was staging. The garrote was a completely haphazard device, totally lacking in efficiency and was actually made on her body. That's proven by the fact that her hair was tied into it. There was hardly any damage to the internals of the neck and there were no defensive wounds on her body. THAT's how they know it was staging. JonBenet just wasn't quite dead yet.
     
  5. luthersmama

    luthersmama Active Member

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    As I understand the autopsy report, the official story is that she was strangled with the garrote.

    However, if you ready the skull fracture thread, there are alot of people who disagree and say that the garrote was done only as "staging".

    So, I guess no matter what the official determination is, people who want to believe otherwise will disagree with that determination.
     
  6. JMO8778

    JMO8778 ..at the beach!

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    I'm no expert, but from the looks of her neck on the autopsy pics,I don't see how the garrotte could cause that large red area beneath it.My guess is manual strangulation with a shirt or nightgown perhaps,then it was staged to appear as if a ligature did it all.
     
  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    "So, I guess no matter what the official determination is, people who want to believe otherwise will disagree with that determination."

    It's not that, luthersmama. The garrote was intended as staging. The person just didn't know that JB wasn't dead yet.
     
  8. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    SuperDave,

    You seem to know a lot about the case so maybe you can help me with something I'm confused about -

    When you say the internals of the neck were hardly damaged, isn't that exactly what is supposed to happen with a garrotte? I mean, people use these things (this type of garrotte - as oppossed to other types which are meant to kill quickly) for erotic asphyxiation - it stands to reason that it's suppossed to asphyxiate w/o doing permanent damage to the internals of the neck. Isn't it possible that a garrotte could kill someone w/o doing much damage?

    We know she really was strangled, either with the garrotte or manually, or with some other object, and we know the internals weren't damaged badly. Why couldn't it have been done with the garrotte?

    To save time, I understand the garrotte wasn't "professional". I understand there are better ways to make them, and that typically they wouldn't be built on the body. But it seems to me this one could have worked -inefficiently- by wrapping the long tail around the hand a few times so as to shorten it up, and then pulling it tight.

    I guess I'm just asking couldn't it possibly have been the garrotte, even if that's not the most probable scenario?

    The reason I ask about this in particular is that I think the evidence points heavily towards the R's. But the business of staging a garrotting has always seemed bizzare (Yes I know people do bizzare things sometimes). Parents who weren't into the pervy world of EA probably wouldn't think of making a garrotte. People who would think of it are probably into pervy EA play. It's seems at least a possibility that the garrotte was made by someone making a first ameturish attempt and going too far with it.
     
  9. tuppence

    tuppence New Member

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    In my mind the only way the garrote "staging" makes sense is if there were already other marks on the neck the killer was trying to cover up.

    It's just a weird thing to stage - there are a lot easier ways to make it look like a sex crime (assuming that was necessary for some reason).
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    tuppence,

    Coroner Meyer's report states:
    Also itemized is ligature strangulation.

    Now the confusing factor is the garrote which was added after she was killed.

    Its perfectly feasable that she was strangled with the cord on its own.

    There are also contusions and abrasions which lie beneath the ligature which imo result from a manual strangulation.

    So either the ligature was used to finish her off, or the head bash was, or both may be staging to mask the manual strangulation. This would still be consistent with Coroner Meyer's report e.g. asphyxia by strangulation.

    I doubt the garrote played any part in her death at all, its functionless, the knotting is fixed, and JonBenet's hair is embedded into the knotting on the painthandle limiting any movement!

    imo the only marks made by the ligature is the circumferential furrow around her neck.


    The evidence for staging is what really incriminates the Ramseys, even more than any forensic evidence that links them, since no intruder has a motive never mind the knowledge to organize all the crime-scene elements.


    .
     
  11. tuppence

    tuppence New Member

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    If there was manual strangulation would the ME be able to tell? If so this would be important evidence that has not been disclosed to the public.
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    tuppence,

    I should think he would, its possible that the reports conclusions are generalisations, which omit some details.

    Its obvious that the Autopsy was provisional, Coroner Meyer had his own opinions, whch he never committed to ink, he was also aware it may end up in court where he would be called upon to opine.

    So its possible he documented the staging, knowing that is what it was, whilst simply itemizing some aspects, and omitting others. He and the police would know precisely what would be relevant if it came to a court case?

    Given the nature of the bruising beneath the ligature, its very doubtful if the ligature caused this, so it was likely manual possibly in tandem with the neck of a sweater?


    .
     
  13. Bev

    Bev New Member

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    It's a tad hurtful the way you've worded your comment. Everyone has read that autopsy, many people numerous times, and I can't think of anyone who says that the garotte didn't contribute to her death. Plainly, it did. No one is in denial, or contends that the autopsy report is "wrong." Our contention (or I should say mine) is that the headblow came first, the perp thought the child was dead, and used the garotte as staging, not knowing that the child was still alive. A brain injury like that causes hypopnea - the person appears not to be breathing, there are no external signs of breathing and the skin feels clammy and cold to the touch.

    I agree with UK Guy, that the garotte was used to cover up other marks - the facts are that there are no neck injuries, the cord is absolutely horizontal and the knot in the back shows no signs on the skin that it was pulled upward as is usually the case in garotte or ligature strangulation. If you look at the autopsy photos, you can see other furrows around the neck and at the anterior base of the neck, there is a bruise which look like knuckle marks on the skin.
     
  14. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Why cover up manual strangulation with garrotte strangulation ? I don't see the need, even for the sex murder scene.
     
  15. sandraladeda

    sandraladeda Inactive

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    My guess is that it was done to point attention away as much as possible from what really happened. If JBR was grabbed and strangled in an angry outburst, the person could only deflect attention so far - strangulation is strangulation, so tossing her into the bathtub, as an example, wouldn't convince anyone she had really drowned, right? So the best way to cover up a strangulation is with another form of strangulation - this one being the garrote - which at least muddies the waters as to motive somewhat (especially in concert with a Ransom Note) imo
     
  16. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Ok, that makes sesne. However, why not just wrap rope around her neck and pull? The garrotte just seems to suggest knowledge of really pervy sex acts, and thsat doesn't seem to fit with "normal" parents.
     
  17. sandraladeda

    sandraladeda Inactive

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    Once again, my guess is deflecting attention AS FAR AWAY as possible from nice, normal, Christian, upstanding, vanilla, suburban parents....
    imho
     
  18. Betsy

    Betsy New Member

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    Exactly....they would have HAD to make the whole thing look as evil and vile as they possibly could, so no one would ever think to look at them as possible suspects.
     
  19. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    I see your point, and it's a valid one.

    My problem with it is that the garrotte suggests a level of knowledge of the world of pervy sex that I wouldn't expect in a nice nomral Christian upstanding vanilla suburban parents.

    Let me focus on the vanilla. How is it vanilla people know what a garrotte is? (I never knew before this case. I'm talking about the type of garrotte meant to asphyxiate for erotic purposes, as opposed to a type meant for quick killing) The people who made the garrotte didn't really know how to tie the right knots, but they sure had in mind a wierd kinky device they were trying to make - how do nice vanilla people know about errotic asphyxiation? IOW, this aspect of staging indicates knowledge of deviant sexual practices. If they did put the garrotte there as staging, they've told us something a bit dark about themselves.
     
  20. PagingDrDetect

    PagingDrDetect New Member

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    The knowledge of the parents knowing about garrote use as a pervy sex device I don't see as something "vanilla" people wouldn't have heard of. That's something they could have read about or seen in a movie or in a story on the news. A garrote for the purpose of tightening a bandage would be known by someone who ever had any emergency medical training. I can see a vanilla person hearing about someone being strangled by a garrote as an AE device and knowing what one is and what it would look like because of some medical training or hearing about what it would like like. But the fact that the garrote didn't function as a garrote should for either an AE device or a killing device shows that the persons knowledge concerning a garrote or how one is used as an AE device is pretty much nil and limited to that of a vanilla person. I don't find anything "dark" about someone having limited knowledge of an AE device or the use of a garrote as an AE device.

    I'm a vanilla person, but I've heard about AE, and I know what a garrote is as far as an emergency medical device goes, and in a pinch I may put two-and-two together to imagine a garrote being used as a pervy AE device. But I wouldn't know how to make one or how it would function as a pervy AE device or even a killing device. Vanilla people hear about pervy and violent stuff from the news or tv shows or movies all the time. The fact that the garrote was an attempt by someone at making a device not practically known them and didn't function as such a device for the purpose intended should just shows that it was made and used by a vanilla person with limited "heard about such a thing" knowledge obtained innocently.
     
  21. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

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    Sure. Ever see the movie "Rising Sun?"

    "When you say the internals of the neck were hardly damaged, isn't that exactly what is supposed to happen with a garrotte?"

    That would be a first that I've heard that!

    "I mean, people use these things (this type of garrotte - as oppossed to other types which are meant to kill quickly) for erotic asphyxiation - it stands to reason that it's suppossed to asphyxiate w/o doing permanent damage to the internals of the neck. Isn't it possible that a garrotte could kill someone w/o doing much damage?"

    If it were applied long enough. But people who go in for that EA business USUALLY use something, like a scarf, to keep marks from appearing. And there, the idea is NOT to kill them.

    If it were ME, I would have looped the cord around my partner's neck (hope she's not reading this) and tled both ends of the cord to the handle. That way, I can control the pressure much more effectively.

    "To save time, I understand the garrotte wasn't 'professional'. I understand there are better ways to make them, and that typically they wouldn't be built on the body. But it seems to me this one could have worked -inefficiently- by wrapping the long tail around the hand a few times so as to shorten it up, and then pulling it tight."

    Exactly! If you were going to do it that way, why put a handle on it in the FIRST place?

    "In my mind the only way the garrote 'staging' makes sense is if there were already other marks on the neck the killer was trying to cover up."

    Norm Early had a different idea. There HAD to be an obvious means of death, since the head wound was not visible.

    "Ok, that makes sesne. However, why not just wrap rope around her neck and pull? The garrotte just seems to suggest knowledge of really pervy sex acts, and thsat doesn't seem to fit with 'normal' parents."

    That was the IDEA!
     

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