General Discussion and Theories #4

[Alethea Dice]

Rsbm

While it is possible that she dropped off her dog to free her up to travel, I cannot imagine why anyone who was about to travel wouldn't want to have money with them. Travel could also explain the sudden stop in electronic communications, as many people only have cell phone coverage inside a certain area, although it would have to be within Canada (or I believe at the time you could still travel by car to the US without a passport). But still, if one is going to travel, usually a passport and money are essential, in my opinion.

Another thing that could explain why someone would give away the things they value, a beloved pet or a lot of money, would be that instead of planning for a trip, they were planning for a suicide. That would also explain the sudden lack of electronic communications, and the flurry of phone activity prior to the silence; there are just some people that we feel we need to say goodbye to, in my opinion.

Something about this always reminds me of poor Miriam Makhniashvili. Teams of people actively searched for her, with great assistance from the media at the time, and still it wasn't discovered that she had committed suicide for years. In a city with millions of people, she was found years later, a short distance from both the busiest highway and one of the busiest streets, in a public space that had previously been searched. At least she was finally found, some suicide victims are never found.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-makhniashvilis-disappearance/article4096262/

All my opinion only.

That is a good point. The family had said they had the impression that she was going away somewhere prior to her disappearance (see tweets included in this article). If she had plans to go away, why would she leave her passport and money at her parent's home?

JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

I don't usually find that people who suffer from depression commit suicide as a form of "revenge". When one feels isolated and alone, I don't think it would be a normal reaction to advertise that one was going to commit suicide to show others what "they had done to her". SL had an informative post on the Help find Laura page on June 6, 2013 at 2:50 if anyone cares to take another look at it. I've never thought of suicide as an act of anger and violence. More of an act of desperation and despair and hopelessness.

JMO

The mental health industry has reclassified suicide as a violence issue: see here at the CDC, suicide falls under the heading of Violence Prevention http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/index.html

The CDC defines the issue this way:

Suicide is when people direct violence at themselves with the intent to end their lives

Think of all the murder-suicides that happen, where the one angry act of suicide expands into murder.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide_factsheet-a.pdf

The tendency to engage in violent behavior is a potentially important risk factor for suicide in substance abusers. Up to 75% of those who begin addiction treatment report having engaged in violent behavior (eg, physical assault, mugging, attacking others with a weapon).20,21 Emerging research also indicates that violence may partially account for the connection between substance abuse and suicide risk. For example, in those seeking treatment for substance use disorders, the perception that they have difficulty in controlling their own violent behavior was associated with a greater likelihood of a prior suicide attempt.22 Tiet and colleagues22 hypothesized that individuals who have difficulty in controlling their anger may be more likely to act impulsively, thus turning the violence on themselves rather than on others.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/sub...-between-substance-abuse-violence-and-suicide

With regard to externally directed aggression, there is a considerable animal literature that will be reviewed and integrated with clinical findings. With regard to suicidal behavior, there is no significant animal literature, and the review will therefore concentrate on human studies. There is, however, a relationship between internal and externally directed aggression, based partly on the observation of a statistically significant association of both types of aggression within the same individual. Therefore, externally directed violence will not be discussed independently of internally directed violence or suicidal behavior, and common and different features will be noted where relevant.

http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000185/CH181.html

 

[SnooperDuper]

In historical literature we can find references to the close connection between suicide, grief, guilt, shame and the desire for vengeance. Sometimes, seeking revenge derails suicidal behavior, as aggression is turned outside and directed externally.

At other times, suicide is a part of the fantasy of revenge. Charlotte Brontë noted the connection between vengeance and suicide in Jane Eyre.

Data from a number of societies indicate that domestic violence is a significant causal factor in female suicide. In some societies, female suicide is a culturally recognized behavior that enables the weak to influence the strong and/or take revenge on those who oppress them. When the social group does not respond adequately to the violence they are receiving, their suicide is designed to force the community to exact vengeance from the abusive husband (Counts, 1987).

http://www.nonviolenceandsocialjust...oom/Reflections-on-the-Desire-for-Revenge/75/

 

[matou]

Trying to pass off TWO murders as suicide? Maybe he tried, but he failed. JMO

 

[Tamarind]

The mental health industry has reclassified suicide as a violence issue: see here at the CDC, suicide falls under the heading of Violence Prevention http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/index.html

The CDC defines the issue this way:



Think of all the murder-suicides that happen, where the one angry act of suicide expands into murder.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide_factsheet-a.pdf



http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/sub...-between-substance-abuse-violence-and-suicide
http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000185/CH181.html

Well I am going to have to disagree with the CDC here. Many suicides are not all violent. Some people take pills, lie down and go to sleep, never to wake up again.
Nothing violent in that at all.

Also, suicide is often due to a desperation caused by clinical depression that may have manifested from a particular psychological illness. IMO if they are going to classify suicide as violence, then they may as well classify bungee jumping, sky diving and skateboarding as violence as they all have potentially self inflicted violent outcomes.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Well I am going to have to disagree with the CDC here. Many suicides are not all violent. Some people take pills, lie down and go to sleep, never to wake up again.
Nothing violent in that at all.

That's true...it is still a violent act to take a healthy living body that fights to live and kill it with drugs. Many drugs cause unexpected pain, cramps, convulsions and so forth that makes the idea of a peaceful death a fantasy.

But good point - if LB wanted to commit suicide, why would she not just take an overdose of the psychiatric drugs that she had been prescribed? Wouldn't her body be found where she was staying?

Also, suicide is often due to a desperation caused by clinical depression that may have manifested from a particular psychological illness. IMO if they are going to classify suicide as violence, then they may as well classify bungee jumping, sky diving and skateboarding as violence as they all have potentially self inflicted violent outcomes.

Murdering yourself is still a violent act, IMO. Human bodies are designed to live and survive. You don't die by lying down and wishing you were dead. You die through a violent act motivated by anger or self-hatred.

ETA: the depressed suffer for apathy, lack of motivation. Anger is motivating and a driving force for suicide IMO.

 

[Tamarind]

That's true...it is still a violent act to take a healthy living body that fights to live and kill it with drugs. Many drugs cause unexpected pain, cramps, convulsions and so forth that makes the idea of a peaceful death a fantasy.

It's not fighting if it's sleeping. JMO. Maybe we should take the pharmaceutacal companies to task as many prescribed drugs cause lasting problems and death. But I guess that would be going off topic :thinking:

But good point - if LB wanted to commit suicide, why would she not just take an overdose of the psychiatric drugs that she had been prescribed? Wouldn't her body be found where she was staying?

Some people choose to die in their home, but others want to make sure they don't wake up and take a quicker route to eternity. If LB has taken the suicide route, she could well be somewhere not far from home. Ontario is vast and concealed places are many, as with the MM case posted above.

Murdering yourself is still a violent act, IMO. Human bodies are designed to live and survive. You don't die by lying down and wishing you were dead. You die through a violent act motivated by anger or self-hatred.

Bungee jumping is a violent act and shakes the body to the core. I don't think suicide is actual violence but that's just my opinion. Suicide is not motivated by anger and self hatred in most cases. It is due to desperation and clinical depression and the like. IMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

It's not fighting if it's sleeping. JMO. Maybe we should take the pharmaceutacal companies to task as many prescribed drugs cause lasting problems and death. But I guess that would be going off topic :thinking:

Well that's all just a lovely fantasy, taking pills and going to sleep instead of convulsions, overheating, racing heart, vomiting, cramps...

Check out DH's book Final Exit, which was written for the terminally ill that seek euthanasia. He suggests a limited number of drugs that are not available in the US or Canada for a peaceful death by pill (you'd need a Mexican vacation and pharmacy to seek this route.) There is nothing on the market in the US and Canada that an ordinary person can get their hands on and die by pill "peacefully". DH suggests that the most peaceful option would be a plastic bag, panic-inducing as that thought is, fed full of helium.

http://www.finalexit.org/

Some people choose to die in their home, but others want to make sure they don't wake up and take a quicker route to eternity. If LB has taken the suicide route, she could well be somewhere not far from home. Ontario is vast and concealed places are many, as with the MM case posted above.

So, in other words, other than the pills (or a helium hood) death would be violent.

Bungee jumping is a violent act and shakes the body to the core. I don't think suicide is actual violence but that's just my opinion. Suicide is not motivated by anger and self hatred in most cases. It is due to desperation and clinical depression and the like. IMO

And depression is self-hatred, a form of anger

What are the symptoms of depression?
Sad mood
Preoccupation with past failures or inadequacies
Loss of self-esteem
Feelings of uselessness, hopelessness, excessive guilt
Slowed thinking, forgetfulness, difficulty
concentrating, difficulty in making decisions
Loss of interest in work, hobbies, people
Lethargy and fatigue
Agitation or restlessness
Changes in weight and appetite — eating too little or too much
Oversleeping or insomnia
Decreased sexual drive
Thoughts of death, dying or suicide

http://www.mooddisorders.ca/faq/depression

Depression is about loss: losing out in society, being the underdog or loser:

These factors can increase the risk of developing or triggering depression:

Having relatives with depression
Being a woman
Having traumatic experiences as a child
Having family members who have committed suicide
Experiencing stressful life events
Having few friends or other personal relationships
Recently having given birth (postpartum depression)
Having a serious illness
Abusing alcohol or drugs
Taking certain medications (consult a doctor)

 

[SnooperDuper]

Trying to pass off TWO murders as suicide? Maybe he tried, but he failed. JMO

Yes, imagine if these were actual suicides...DM's girlfriend and father would both be very sick people before they died and DM would be surrounded by these sick minds. You'd expect that if DM could mesh with sick people like this, that he had some personal issues of his own.

I don't think WM or LB committed suicide, but I do think DM had some psychological issues.

 

[Tamarind]

Yes, imagine if these were actual suicides...DM's girlfriend and father would both be very sick people before they died and DM would be surrounded by these sick minds. You'd expect that if DM could mesh with sick people like this, that he had some personal issues of his own.

I don't think WM or LB committed suicide, but I do think DM had some psychological issues.

Not all suicide indicates a sick mind IMO. Some people maybe have had enough of life ( and lets be fair there is a lot for people to bear these days with oppression, financial worries and the like. Maybe reality gets to them and they think it's just not worth the crap.

Just because I may not be someone to succumb to the pressures of reality doesn't mean someone else won't. I don't think it makes them ill necessarily. I think there are many reasons for suicides. Trying to assimilate WM''s suicide to DM being allegedly surrounded by sick minds is not backed up by anything IMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Not all suicide indicates a sick mind IMO. Some people maybe have had enough of life ( and lets be fair there is a lot for people to bear these days with oppression, financial worries and the like. Maybe reality gets to them and they think it's just not worth the crap.

But that is hardly the sign of a healthy mind. People with social support are less likely to succumb to suicide.

Just because I may not be someone to succumb to the pressures of reality doesn't mean someone else won't. I don't think it makes them ill necessarily. I think there are many reasons for suicides. Trying to assimilate WM''s suicide to DM being allegedly surrounded by sick minds is not backed up by anything IMO

Well wait, "mental illness", are these people not sick if they are ill? I thought sick = ill.

 

[Tamarind]

Yes, imagine if these were actual suicides...DM's girlfriend and father would both be very sick people before they died and DM would be surrounded by these sick minds. You'd expect that if DM could mesh with sick people like this, that he had some personal issues of his own.

I don't think WM or LB committed suicide, but I do think DM had some psychological issues.

Like I have said, suicide doesn't mean sick minds. IMO. There is a clinic in Switzerland practicing 'legal' suicide where they administer lethal concoctions to those wishing to die. I don't say I agree with it. One of the requirements for them carrying out these wishes are that the one wishing to die knows exactly what they are doing and have truly made a sane decision to end their life. I don't think their policy is to euthanize people who are off their rockers JMO

We know that LB had psychological issues and yet suicide is doubted?

WM death was ruled a suicide, we know he was an alcoholic and had a lot of stress from the problems with MA.

In my opinion I think LB is either alive or committed suicide, and WM either committed suicide or was taken out by someone other than DM.

 

[Tamarind]

But that is hardly the sign of a healthy mind. People with social support are less likely to succumb to suicide.

Who can really say what constitutes a healthy mind? I have seen people in prestigious positions who are completely evil and have no empathy at all. That is unhealthy but yet they survive to cause others great distress.
People still commit suicide even when they have loving families there for them. Suicide notes are usually to express love for their family and sometimes to say sorry for the inevitable pain they know their passing will bring. Others leave no note at all, but may leave something of value, a pet, money, personal treasures ??

Well wait, "mental illness", are these people not sick if they are ill? I thought sick = ill.

Having a cold is an illness, as is the flu and a sinus infection. Being ill can mean being ill mentally but like I have said, in my opinion not all suicides involve mental illness JMO. But knowing LB did have psychological issues that chance that she committed suicide is greater IMO, but not necessarily so..

 

[Tamarind]

Well that's all just a lovely fantasy, taking pills and going to sleep instead of convulsions, overheating, racing heart, vomiting, cramps...

Check out DH's book Final Exit, which was written for the terminally ill that seek euthanasia. He suggests a limited number of drugs that are not available in the US or Canada for a peaceful death by pill (you'd need a Mexican vacation and pharmacy to seek this route.) There is nothing on the market in the US and Canada that an ordinary person can get their hands on and die by pill "peacefully". DH suggests that the most peaceful option would be a plastic bag, panic-inducing as that thought is, fed full of helium.

http://www.finalexit.org/



So, in other words, other than the pills (or a helium hood) death would be violent.



And depression is self-hatred, a form of anger



http://www.mooddisorders.ca/faq/depression

Depression is about loss: losing out in society, being the underdog or loser:

People can and do commit suicide with over the counter meds and prescription meds.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Like I have said, suicide doesn't mean sick minds. IMO. There is a clinic in Switzerland practicing 'legal' suicide where they administer lethal concoctions to those wishing to die. I don't say I agree with it. One of the requirements for them carrying out these wishes are that the one wishing to die knows exactly what they are doing and have truly made a sane decision to end their life. I don't think their policy is to euthanize people who are off their rockers JMO

We know that LB had psychological issues and yet suicide is doubted?

WM death was ruled a suicide, we know he was an alcoholic and had a lot of stress from the problems with MA.

In my opinion I think LB is either alive or committed suicide, and WM either committed suicide or was taken out by someone other than DM.

But neither WM nor LB would meet the criteria to use the suicide service Dignitas...neither suffered from a terminal illness or long term, intractable mental health problems.

Why would WM NOT use a service such as Dignitas given he could afford it and it ensured a peaceful death rather than the very violent death that he suffered, if he truly has long term mental health issues that could only be overcome by suicide? It would be much kinder to WM's family for them to be informed of his wishes and included in the process, as Dignitas provides. Why be so angry and cruel, if he did indeed commit suicide? Why then, did he wish so much pain and the rest of his family, if he chose to go out the way he did?

 

[SnooperDuper]

People can and do commit suicide with over the counter meds and prescription meds.

Which begs the question, if LB has access to prescription drugs through her treatment, why did she not use them to suicide by overdose, and why was her body not found?

You would think if suicide happened, LB would choose the easiest means available to her.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Wow. No wonder there is still so much stigma about suicide and mental illness. How sad. :notgood:

https://www.uoguelph.ca/counselling/awareness/chapter-3-suicide

https://calgary.cmha.ca/mental_health/myths-about-mental-illness/

 

[Arnie M]

.

After the court cases are completed , it will be interesting to see if mental health issues , denial , suicide , or pharmacy actually played any part .

.

 

[Tamarind]

Which begs the question, if LB has access to prescription drugs through her treatment, why did she not use them to suicide by overdose, and why was her body not found?

Out of the numerous ways to end ones life, why would we expect LB to settle on that one?

One possibility that her body hasn't been found is that it could be in a derelict spot or a wooded area not frequented by many. I remember years ago someone at my school was found a year after going missing, had apparently hung themselves in a wood. Reason they were found was that someone walking their dog had followed their dog into the wooded area. May have taken longer to find had that dog not wandered.

You would think if suicide happened, LB would choose the easiest means available to her.

I don't think people always take the easiest way to do anything. Sometimes they simply wander, get tired, hungry and lie down. Psychological worn down. She died where she lay.This happened to a woman close to my area just over a year ago. She had been having family problems. She was found by children aged about 12.

 

[Tamarind]

But neither WM nor LB would meet the criteria to use the suicide service Dignitas...neither suffered from a terminal illness or long term, intractable mental health problems.

Why would WM NOT use a service such as Dignitas given he could afford it and it ensured a peaceful death rather than the very violent death that he suffered, if he truly has long term mental health issues that could only be overcome by suicide? It would be much kinder to WM's family for them to be informed of his wishes and included in the process, as Dignitas provides.Why be so angry and cruel, if he did indeed commit suicide? Why then, did he wish so much pain and the rest of his family, if he chose to go out the way he did?

Maybe like me he didn''t agree with Dignitas. Maybe he felt that sad he just wanted out.
Angry and cruel? More like fed up with being drink dependent and depressed more likely, in my opinion, if he committed suicide.

It is hard to make generalized opinions on mental health issues as there are so many different types.