George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[JaneEyre]

It has nothing to do with being thin-skinned. They have no idea that she is really a firefighter. Anybody can claim that to gain access to the scene. And given the situation with people yelling insults, I can’t blame them. She lost her cool quickly and appeared to be antagonistic. IMO

I think that losing your cool while watching someone being murdered is the most normal response to that situation. Killing someone slowly is the abnormal thing here.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I think that losing your cool while watching someone being murdered is the most normal response to that situation. Killing someone slowly is the abnormal thing here.

Yes, but as we see here at WS, some here do not agree with such a reaction perhaps, and do not understand such feelings many here have, nor have such angst.

Indeed I find eye opening that many folks would not react as I do, and try to understand that some may not have felt like "going ballistic" and understanding such feelings as most of us have. That they think all on the sidewalk should have been quiet and gone their way, or not tried to EXCLAIM TO HELP. Some, they just don't see such emotions. They don't understand such emotions. They perceive these traumatic helpless cries for help and gut instincts as something else?

That's what I like about WS... is to know that there are folks who have differing opinions, even if they SHOCK me to the core. But, they have them, that is where they come from. To each his own here at WS with recognition of such.

But those folks exist here on the threads, and I'm so interested in reading their views as they are so very very polar to what I thought ALL people would have seeing such a site.

It has been very eye opening indeed to me reading such.

EXTREMELY eye opening.

 

[MsBetsy]

It’s been awhile since I went through training, but from what I remember... you did everything to avoid positional asphyxia. In my job, there were non stop uses of force. And I mean, NON STOP. I was actually a trainer and a supervisor, so I was held to the highest standard. No matter how much I trained my staff, they (and I), experienced things far removed from our training. We had to adapt. There’s no rule book for that.

I don’t want to personalize, but what we should do and what we see others do may be far different than what we actually do. For whatever reason.

I was referring to the restraint. Once a suspect is already hand cuffed and lying in the prone position, what would be an acceptable reason for the neck and back restraining for an additional nine minutes? What was it the officers had to adapt to? I have never heard of nonstop force so I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[kittythehare]

Someone with a documented history of violence, drug use and close ties to a local murder tried to enter our house tonight - he was unsuccessful and left when said I was calling the cops and my husband was getting his gun. He did enter our neighbor’s house - just walked right in. The cops arrested him eventually. He had an active warrant.
It took several hours and some medication to help me fall asleep. I just woke from a horrendous nightmare I don’t care to describe. But in it, I tried to render life saving aid to the man who just attempted to kill my husband.
I may have to back of WS for a while. These cases combined with the continuing violence/crime in our world today is overwhelming for my psyche.

I'm sorry you had such a scary experience but I'm marvelling at your wonderful dream of catharsis, forgiveness and a heart that's big enough to do that.
It's overwhelming for all of us whether we're websleuths or not.
Just the other day somebody said something that struck me.She said she misses the days when we only heard the news in the evenings.
Now it's all day, every day and it's quite a bombardment.
He really scared you but you were able to forgive him in your dream and go a step further, save his life.
There is a big lesson there for me and thank you for sharing it.
Be well.
I know you will.

 

[MsBetsy]

I'm behind & may very well be missing something, but I watched the ambulance footage, and the paramedics inserted an airway and had GF on O2 (likely 100%) from less than a minute after he was placed in the ambulance. If I remember correctly, the arterial blood gases were drawn at the hospital. So, IMO, there's a good chance that his 02 levels went back up by the time they did the stick & ran the gases. Anyone else's medical knowledge is more than welcome!

He also had CPR for almost 45 minutes. The whole purpose for CPR is to keep oxygen flowing in and out of the lungs and oxygenated blood flowing through the body, until the patient is breathing on their own. I'm not a doctor or a nurse but I've been trained in CPR.

At least one of the witnesses explained it's important to keep going even if the victim has taken a few breathes, or gasps. I don't remember the context but maybe it had something to do with keeping the oxygen going or preventing tissue death.

Imo

 

[missy1974]

Someone with a documented history of violence, drug use and close ties to a local murder tried to enter our house tonight - he was unsuccessful and left when said I was calling the cops and my husband was getting his gun. He did enter our neighbor’s house - just walked right in. The cops arrested him eventually. He had an active warrant.
It took several hours and some medication to help me fall asleep. I just woke from a horrendous nightmare I don’t care to describe. But in it, I tried to render life saving aid to the man who just attempted to kill my husband.
I may have to back of WS for a while. These cases combined with the continuing violence/crime in our world today is overwhelming for my psyche.

So sorry you had to go through that. Take care.

 

[missy1974]

I had never seen this transcript before. Whoa, so different when transcribed. Is this an exhibit that jury will see as usually the courts don't allow?

Ummmm, when I found someone dead, I said "he's gone". LE said to friends such...

Page 44 of this transcript.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/do...cript-from-the-body-camera-of-J-Alexander.pdf

I remember hearing that and thinking 'he knew!!!', but then right afterwards he says 'if he's gonna come back, we gotta tell him where his stuff is'. (He/they were telling Shawanda Hill to put GF's phone back into the car)

This wasn't an exhibit in the trial afaik, this was filed in pretrial motions I think, and I do recall at one point in the trial, the State wanted to show a video with 'caption's' and Nelson argued against it saying it was the State's interpretation and the judge agreed, saying that the jury could hear what they could hear or something like that. I think it might have been something to do with the "I ate too many drugs" vs "I ain't do no drugs".

ETA: the video that goes with the transcript:

 

[mickey2942]

Yes, but as we see here at WS, some here do not agree with such a reaction perhaps, and do not understand such feelings many here have, nor have such angst.

Indeed I find eye opening that many folks would not react as I do, and try to understand that some may not have felt like "going ballistic" and understanding such feelings as most of us have. That they think all on the sidewalk should have been quiet and gone their way, or not tried to EXCLAIM TO HELP. Some, they just don't see such emotions. They don't understand such emotions. They perceive these traumatic helpless cries for help and gut instincts as something else?

That's what I like about WS... is to know that there are folks who have differing opinions, even if they SHOCK me to the core. But, they have them, that is where they come from. To each his own here at WS with recognition of such.

But those folks exist here on the threads, and I'm so interested in reading their views as they are so very very polar to what I thought ALL people would have seeing such a site.

It has been very eye opening indeed to me reading such.

EXTREMELY eye opening.

What would have happened if someone had really stepped up to Chauvin, intervened, and GF would be alive today?

1. GF would be in jail, for the counterfeit bill, drugs.
2. Chauvin would still be out working and providing "training" to new officers.
3. The person who stepped up? Would probably be knee deep in police charges, court dates, and be portrayed as a "dangerous individual" who "interferred" with police officers. Probably end up hog tied as well, with a knee on his or her throat for five or ten minutes to "calm" her down.

Yeah. So much for Whistleblowing. Or trying to help out. Been there, done it.

 

[turaj]

What would have happened if someone had really stepped up to Chauvin, intervened, and GF would be alive today?

1. GF would be in jail, for the counterfeit bill, drugs.
2. Chauvin would still be out working and providing "training" to new officers.
3. The person who stepped up? Would probably be knee deep in police charges, court dates, and be portrayed as a "dangerous individual" who "interferred" with police officers. Probably end up hog tied as well, with a knee on his or her throat for five or ten minutes to "calm" her down.

Yeah. So much for Whistleblowing. Or trying to help out. Been there, done it.

I can take the "what if" to a simpler place ...."what if" Chauvin and Thao had not decided to go back up the Lane and his partner who really were the responders on the call. The back up call was cancelled and they decided to go anyway per Thao's insistence since he knew the "hood". I think the rookies would have handled the call just fine...eventually calmed GF down...so 1 and 2 above still the same.

 

[kittythehare]

I can take the "what if" to a simpler place ...."what if" Chauvin and Thao had not decided to go back up the Lane and his partner who really were the responders on the call. The back up call was cancelled and they decided to go anyway per Thao's insistence since he knew the "hood". I think the rookies would have handled the call just fine...eventually calmed GF down...so 1 and 2 above still the same.

I agree.
It wasn't that hard to calm him down in the 2019 call and he was a great deal more wasted at that time.
I still wonder , at the back of my mind whether the two recognised each other from the night club work..
Irrelevant to this trial in any case.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I was referring to the restraint. Once a suspect is already hand cuffed and lying in the prone position, what would be an acceptable reason for the neck and back restraining for an additional nine minutes? What was it the officers had to adapt to? I have never heard of nonstop force so I'm not sure what you mean.

By non stop I meant back to back to back for, most times, the duration of shift.

 

[MsBetsy]

I can take the "what if" to a simpler place ...."what if" Chauvin and Thao had not decided to go back up the Lane and his partner who really were the responders on the call. The back up call was cancelled and they decided to go anyway per Thao's insistence since he knew the "hood". I think the rookies would have handled the call just fine...eventually calmed GF down...so 1 and 2 above still the same.

Yes, I think they were doing fine considering it was their first week. It did not escalate into a life threatening situation until Chauvin and Thao got there.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

I'm sorry you had such a scary experience but I'm marvelling at your wonderful dream of catharsis, forgiveness and a heart that's big enough to do that.
It's overwhelming for all of us whether we're websleuths or not.
Just the other day somebody said something that struck me.She said she misses the days when we only heard the news in the evenings.
Now it's all day, every day and it's quite a bombardment.
He really scared you but you were able to forgive him in your dream and go a step further, save his life.
There is a big lesson there for me and thank you for sharing it.
Be well.
I know you will.

VERY MUCH UNDERSTOOD!

I have changed my daily news watching. No longer what I did watch before. I now do 30 minute news program which gives me highlights as to NEWS... and not talking heads any longer.

 

[magnolia]

I agree.
It wasn't that hard to calm him down in the 2019 call and he was a great deal more wasted at that time.
I still wonder , at the back of my mind whether the two recognised each other from the night club work..
Irrelevant to this trial in any case.

The officers in the 2019 incident were more assertive and vocal in their communication. I believe Mr. Floyd knew these officers meant business.IMO

It went through my mind as I watched the video that Mr. Floyd said nothing about being claustrophobic during the 2019 incident.

 

[tara83]

The officers in the 2019 incident were more assertive and vocal in their communication. I believe Mr. Floyd knew these officers meant business.IMO

It went through my mind as I watched the video that Mr. Floyd said nothing about being claustrophobic during the 2019 incident.

Actually I thought the opposite while watching it.They actually made jokes and didn't seem angry.My brother who is a police officer said that's often the way he approaches things and it seems to lesson the tension.

 

[turaj]

The officers in the 2019 incident were more assertive and vocal in their communication. I believe Mr. Floyd knew these officers meant business.IMO

It went through my mind as I watched the video that Mr. Floyd said nothing about being claustrophobic during the 2019 incident.

Well went back and found this very complete video of 2019...I can't make out much what he said and did not hear "claustrophobic" but what struck me was the takedown and tactics of the officers...so different...they spoke to him like a human being...got the job done...cuffed...standing and honestly he was about the same as May 25th. It shows how it could have and should have gone down

 

[Leve]

Yes, but as we see here at WS, some here do not agree with such a reaction perhaps, and do not understand such feelings many here have, nor have such angst.

Indeed I find eye opening that many folks would not react as I do, and try to understand that some may not have felt like "going ballistic" and understanding such feelings as most of us have. That they think all on the sidewalk should have been quiet and gone their way, or not tried to EXCLAIM TO HELP. Some, they just don't see such emotions. They don't understand such emotions. They perceive these traumatic helpless cries for help and gut instincts as something else?

That's what I like about WS... is to know that there are folks who have differing opinions, even if they SHOCK me to the core. But, they have them, that is where they come from. To each his own here at WS with recognition of such.

But those folks exist here on the threads, and I'm so interested in reading their views as they are so very very polar to what I thought ALL people would have seeing such a site.

It has been very eye opening indeed to me reading such.

EXTREMELY eye opening.

I'm done think anybody is saying nobody should have been upset even yelling.

As far as the FF, imagine if instead of calling names and yelling from the crowd, she would have just said I'm so and so a firefighter out of station whatever, I work under chief blah blah. I'm a trained EMT. Can I offer some assistance? No. I'm not blaming her for anything, just saying she could also have handled things differently too.

There is no excuse for not rendering aid to GF and for continuing to restrain him after he lost consciousness and especially after they found no pulse.

 

[missy1974]

I hope once the trial is over that the jurors talk, hopefully anonymously for their own safety.

But I want to know what they thought about certain witnesses, evidence, opinions, regardless of what their verdict is.

 

[turaj]

I hope once the trial is over that the jurors talk, hopefully anonymously for their own safety.

But I want to know what they thought about certain witnesses, evidence, opinions, regardless of what their verdict is.

Yes it is always good to hear. I can think of one in particular if she deliberates that would like to talk. I think we will not hear much for quite some time though depending on the verdict.

 

[MsBetsy]

By non stop I meant back to back to back for, most times, the duration of shift.

Ok. So are you saying police are trained to automatically use force before considering other options, such as de-escalation? Or that despite their training they are "conditioned" to use force no matter what the level of resistance?

From your perspective, what are some of the things Chauvin should have or should not have done beginning when he first arrived and throughout the neck restraint?

What actions by Floyd can be described as fighting or actively resisting during the nine minutes and 26 seconds he was restrained?

It's always interesting to get an LE opinion and we don't always have that advantage on every thread.