George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #3

[Kimberlyd125]

After LE handcuffed him did they allow Zimmerman to brush the grass off of his jacket? Did LE brush off the back of his jacket for him? If not then where did the grass go? And would there not be grass stains on the back of the jacket if Zimmerman's story was true about "squirming" while on his back to get his head off of the sidewalk?

Please note that I used "squirming" since that is the word Zimmerman used during the LE walk through.

I don't have those answers. Perhaps it will come out during the trial.

 

[iluvmua]

Trayvon initiated verbal contact because he was being followed/felt harassed.

Yes, but you have also stated things that are not in evidence as fact, such as Trayvon went for the gun. That's important to qualify because there is so much assumption being made.

Where have I posted that? Quotes were getting mixed up earlier.

There is no evidence to suggest Trayvon went for the gun.

 

[TorisMom003]

You are missing my point. It doesn't matter if the phone was being rubbed in the grass. The only sense the "ear witness" had in play was auditory. Without the rest of one's senses, there is no way to know what one is hearing. IMO, the witness is relying on after-the-fact information to arrive at her testimony. The truth is that she may have been hearing wind noise, or breathing mixed with static, or even the sound of fabric. IMO, I am seeing a sad procession of testimony that relies more on information cobbled together after the confrontation than on actual, real-time experience. It is clear to me that not one of the state's witnesses, to date, has any clue what actually happened. JMO, OMO, MOO.

I respectfully disagree with you. My hearing is pretty close to perfect since my eyesight is so bad. I can tell you what is going on in another room that I can not see into from the sounds I hear. A decision is being made about what a witness could possibly hear when we have no idea how well she can actually hear.

 

[AngelWings444]

I would not be happy but - it would reveal something in his character. There would be NO reason for him to speak with someone for hours unless they had things in common...and if he felt comfortable saying those things to her and she candidly repeats them on the witness stand.... yes - I would expect others to conclude that it reveals something about my son's character. Being raised in the south - he has friends of all races and would never use such language....neither my husband not myself would tolerate our children or their friends talking like that....

I do not or have never tolerated my children speaking like these kids do. So, my kids have spoken like that around their friends, without me knowing. You can't police everything. Kids are kids...they do not speak with their friends like they do with their parents. Come on...even I said things bad when my parents weren't around. It's called being a teenager. Also, with all the music, videos and the carp they spew in them, it's not difficult to understand where kids get if from. Some kids think it's cool, then they grow up. There should be a different standard for GZ, he is an adult.

 

[Nymeria]

Belated :welcome: Moonie!

Hello Everyone :greetings: ! I am brand spankin' new to this community. Been lurking for awhile and decided to sign up. First let me congratulate you all on being able to keep this conversation civil, mature, and as polite as can be . A lot of the other sites have just been awful with their comments . I tip my hat to all of you. Good points made here as well on both sides.

Anyway, I quoted the above post because I agree and understood where Rachel/Dee Dee was coming from as far as being frustrated, but I am wondering if her expression of having a snappy attitude will be a reflection on Trayvon as far as the jury is concerned. They may think that he had a similar attitude since people tend to gravitate towards friends who are similar in behavior to themselves. Just a thought.

 

[m00c0w]

"Facts" not proven yet. Saying it over and over does not make it fact. Hearing it from a man that shot and killed a young man and is on trial for 2nd degree murder does not make it fact.

Moo

It's as factual as alleging that Zimmerman was out to kill Martin, that Zimmerman tried to apprehend Martin, that Zimmerman had racial motivations, that Zimmerman was just itching to kill someone, that Zimmerman was running around with his gun out, that Zimmerman made overt threats towards Martin.

That is my only point.

:moo:

 

[polleypockets]

Getting out of a car: legal/not a crime
Following someone: legal/not a crime
Asking someone what they are doing: legal/not a crime

Punching someone in the nose: illegal/crime

a grown man who gets out of his car and goes on a foot chase trying to catch a teenager - don't you think at that point TM was in fear for his life???

 

[Linda7NJ]

Did you not see the huge bump on the side of his nose?
And his black eyes in the reenactment?

His nose looks fine

 

[kaRN]

I have lost 2 entire posts cause this thread is so busy!
Dee Dee is using "street slang", common all over this Nation. I heard it 15 years ago at my daughter's HS and we live in RURAL Arizona, cattle country, open range, cowboys. We're not even a city, we're a "zip code". It wasn't acceptable in the house I grew up in, or in the house I raised my children in. But it is what it is. JMO
I can totally understand where she is coming from:
She finds out her childhood friend, she had re-connected with less than a month, was killed. The shooter has been arrested. Case closed. Then before the wake, she finds out she was the last to speak to him, she could have called 911 when the call was dropped but she didn't, she feels guilt, feels responsible. She doesn't go to the wake. She lies to get out of it.
Just mere weeks after the death she is contacted by the mom. She lies about her age to avoid talking to their attorney. She thinks the case was solved. She calls her mom in Haiti to help her get out of this situation. Her mom tells TM's mom, "It's OK" for DD to talk to their attorney.
LE hasn't even attempted to contact her......WHY?
The attorney tapes the convo/depo and THEN releases part of it to the media, w/o her knowledge. She hears her voice coming from the TV. Now she's being posted up on the Internet, in the paper, on the news.
The lawyers want to meet at such and such a place at a certain time, they don't care about accommodating her schedule. Her mom isn't there to support her, I presume she's still in Haiti.
She hasn't even had time to mourn her friend, deal with her self imposed guilt, or the sudden infamy. I'd be angry too.
I testified in a murder trial when I was 19, and again when I was 20. I was married and had the support of my parents, and if things got crazy, THEY could flex their muscles and get the lawyers to back down.
It was frightening, stressful, confusing, down right SCARY. As far as I know, my name was never in print or read over the local news.
I don't care how "mature" you are at 19, no one is ever prepared to testify in a murder trial, especially when you don't have support of some kind or someone to look after your well being. For that matter no one at any age is prepared to testify in the trial of the death of a friend. JMO.

Brilliant post!!
Thank you voice of empathy and reason!!!

 

[m00c0w]

So TM didn't have a right to question why a grown man was thrashing about in the dark in pursuit of him?
We have only the word of the shooter that Trayvon caused him to be in fear of his life.
Think how quickly GZ shot TM after the call by GZ to the police.
We even have a witness that told GZ he was calling 911.Before he could make it upstairs he heard the shot.
IMO

TM had the right to ask a question; I never said he did not.

 

[m00c0w]

View attachment 35195
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His nose looks fine

Natasha Richardson's head "looked fine".

 

[iluvmua]

I never said he was charged with stalking. That doesn't mean he didn't stalk TM or all the other suspicious people walking thought his neighborhood. He did stalk TM that night, by all the definitions presented in the last case we followed where we agreed that JA stalked TA.
She was charged for murder not stalking. GZ is charged with murder not stalking.

You said he was stalking him when there is no evidence of that.

That's because she WAS stalking Travis. This is a totally different case.

If you are going to say that George was even stalking him, You need evidence to back up your claim.

JMO

 

[AngelWings444]

Yesterday I posted three videos to prove that Zimmerman's story had in fact changed: the recorded non emergency call, the walk through with LE the day after the shooting and the interview with LE including the "voice stress test". I was then asked to please tell what the issues were that I felt was a change in story since all three videos equaled to over 2 hours. Last night I watched and transcribed the non emergency call and the walk through video. I will not be posting the entire transcriptions as they are very long however I will post excerpts from them to show the change.

From the non emergency recorded call:
He's at the clubhouse. Yea now he's coming towards me.
From the walk through:
I parked here at the clubhouse to call non emergency. He walked towards me.
So far so good.

From the non emergency call:
D- ok he's near the clubhouse?
Z- yea now he's coming towards me, he's got his hand in his waistband............something's wrong with him, yep. he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hand, I don't know what his deal is
D- ok just let me know if he does anything ok
Z- get the cops over here
D- yea they're on the way, just let me know if he does anything else
Z- ok, these a@@holes always get away
From the walk through:
@4:56
dispatcher asked where did he go? Which way did he go? I lost him, the cut down here and made a right in there and they said what direction did he go in? And I said I don't know I can't see him and he said can you get to somewhere where you can see him? And I said yea I can so I backed out........
Now during this exchange Zimmerman is supposedly parked in the parking area for the clubhouse. Trayvon is on the other side of the road coming towards Zimmerman and then past him with the road between them.

From the walk through:
@5:41
And I parked at right about where that sign is in the yard..........yes and I saw him walking back that way and then cut through the back of the houses. He looked back and he noticed me and he cut back through the houses. I was still on the phone with non emergency um and then he came back and he started walking up towards the grass and then came down and circled my car and I told the operator that. He circled my car and I didn't hear if he said anything but he had his hand in his waistband and I think I told the operator that and they said where are you? And I couldn't remember the street cause I don't live on this street, Retreat View Circle goes in a circle and I said I don't know and he said we need an address and I said I don't know an address. I think I gave him my address and they said give us directions so that we can get to you and I said if you tell the police to go straight at the clubhouse and make a left my truck will be there. And again they asked me where he went, what direction he went in and I said I don't know and then I thought to get out and look for a street sign so I got out of my car and I started walking (at this point LE and Zimmerman get out of the police car). I was still on the phone with non emergency and I started walking down this way and because I didn't see a street sign here but I knew if I went straight through that that's Retreat View Circle and I could give them an address cause he said just give me the address you're in front of and there's no address cause it's the back of the houses so I walked up through here and I didn't see him at all. I was walking and I was still on the phone with non emergency. I got to about, I got to about here and I had a flashlight with me, flashlight was dead though and I looked around and I didn't see anybody and I told non emergency you know what, he's gone, he's not even here. So I still thought I could use their address and they said well if he's not there do you still want a police officer and I said yes. And they said are you following him, oh I'm sorry, back there they said are you following him and I said yes because I was, you know, in the area and he said we don't need you to do that and I said ok. So that's when I walked straight through here to get the address so that I could meet the police officer..............
From the non emergency call:
Z- sh@t he's running
D- he's running? which way is he running?
(car door opens and closes-Z is out of car)
Z- down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood
D- ok which entrance is that that he's headed towards?
Z- the back entrance
D- are you following him?
Z- yea
D- ok we don't need you to do that
Z- ok
Now there is ALOT wrong with this part. Zimmerman is claiming things that is clearly not in the recorded call. Zimmerman also changes his reason as to why he gets out of the car and neglects to tell LE that he was in fact following Trayvon.

From the non emergency call:
D- alright George, we have them on the way. do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Z- yea
D- alright where are you going to meet with them at?
Z- um if they come in through the gate tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then they go past the mailboxes they'll see my truck
D- ok what address are you parked in front of?
Z- um I don't know its a cut through street so I don't know the address
D- ok do you live in the area?
Z- yea yea
D- what's your apartment number?
Z- it's a home. it's .........oh crap I don't want to give it all out I don't know where this kid is
D- ok do you want to meet them right at the mailboxes then?
Z- yea that's fine.......actually could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?
D- ok that's no problem
Z- you need my number or you got it?
D- yea I got it...........
Z- ok
D- ok
From the walk through:
@9:18
And they said where do you want him to come to and I said you know what just tell him to meet me at my truck next to the clubhouse. If you go straight in through the clubhouse and make a left I am the Honda Ridgeline, silver Honda Ridgeline is parked right there, I'll meet him right there. So I started walking back.
This one seems rather obvious to me. Zimmerman never described his truck and he neglected to tell LE that he changed his mind and told the dispatcher to have LE call him instead to find out where he would be.

When I saw that you were going to post a "long post" and wanted to make sure the thread would stay open, it made me smile and I patiently waited, knowing it would be right on the money! Thank you!! :rockon:

 

[polleypockets]

Only if there was an imminent threat of use of unlawful force, at a minimum.

I'm not sure how reasonably "A man was watching where I was going" satisfies this requirement.

a 30 something year old man gets out of his car and chases a teenager thru the dark backyard area of the town homes - can you really tell me you don't think TM didn't feel that was an imminent threat??? especially when tm asked gz why was he following him and gz wouldn't tell him??? how would he know this was not some crazy psycho??

 

[claudicici]

Getting out of a car: legal/not a crime
Following someone: legal/not a crime
Asking someone what they are doing: legal/not a crime

Punching someone in the nose: illegal/crime

not a crime if you're scared enough !

 

[polleypockets]

Considering he was conducting a lawful activity if he did not threaten, assault, or batter Martin... Yes, he would be completely innocent if the defense's side of the story is true.

Him being stupid and getting out of his truck to try and help police find where Martin was going should not be a death sentence.

:moo:

bbm do you mean a death sentence for TM???

 

[m00c0w]

a 30 something year old man gets out of his car and chases a teenager thru the dark backyard area of the town homes - can you really tell me you don't think TM didn't feel that was an imminent threat??? especially when tm asked gz why was he following him and gz wouldn't tell him??? how would he know this was not some crazy psycho??

Considering he had a head-start on Zimmerman, and disappeared from Zimmerman... Yeah, I'd say he retreated and was able to retreat. That's not an imminent threat.

IMO

 

[TorisMom003]

a 30 something year old man gets out of his car and chases a teenager thru the dark backyard area of the town homes - can you really tell me you don't think TM didn't feel that was an imminent threat??? especially when tm asked gz why was he following him and gz wouldn't tell him??? how would he know this was not some crazy psycho??

Exactly. And really would it have been so difficult for Zimmerman to simply say something to the effect of I am with the neighborhood watch? That would have diffused the situation and then nothing more would have happened that night. Trayvon would not have been shot and killed and Zimmerman would not be on trial for 2nd degree murder.

MOO

 

[iluvmua]

a grown man who gets out of his car and goes on a foot chase trying to catch a teenager - don't you think at that point TM was in fear for his life???

Not if he was right by his father's place and had more than enough time to get back to where he was staying at.

Do you honestly think George would have been able to keep up with Trayvon, esp. since he did not know where he went?

JMO

 

[kimlynn]

Getting out of a car: legal/not a crime
Following someone: legal/not a crime
Asking someone what they are doing: legal/not a crime

Punching someone in the nose: illegal/crime

I would think that shooting a minor for a punch in the nose might also be considered a crime.
Time will tell.
I tend to think that GZ was feeling brave with the knowledge that he had his weapon to use if any problems arose so indeed did confront Martin and possibly tried to detain him/hence the possible punch in the nose from Martin.
IMO