Gerard Baden Clay's murder appeal

[Couldbe]

How GBC may truthfully say "I did not kill my wife"
Well... sort of truthfully....
This is conjecture on my part, but playing with words is not conjecture.
Allison was rendered unconscious by an act of GBC.
He either did, or did not check that she was deceased, after that act.
Nevertheless, he placed her at Kholo Creek. That place (my conjecture) was pre-planned.
Before I explain the "Innocent of Murder" theory, I would like to suggest that this does not explain the use of Ice or another drug that might cause a perpetrator to suffer a memory lapse.
The reason I am supplying this "Innocent of Murder" talk is this:
Many years ago, I was a passenger on a bus in Brisbane. A man walked out straight into the path of the bus. He was knocked out cold, unconsciousness. Ambulance was called and he was transported to the RBH. I escorted the fellow to the hospital.
Next day, the local newspaper reported the event:
"Man killed by bus....."
That was wrong in my 18 year mind. He was hit by a bus, rendered unconscious, and maybe died as a result ... I genuinely didn't know for sure as I didn't stick around the hospital all night.
This mentality on my part is called splitting hairs, and obviously suggests immaturity. However, for many years, I genuinely believed that the newspaper report "Man killed by bus" was wrong.
Should have reported thus" Man died as a result of walking into a bus"

In the same manner, it is possible that Baden Clay can say that he did not kill his wife.
Why? Because he did not check for signs of life, ie breathing and circulation, when he placed her at Kholo Creek.
And thus he could not for absolute certainty proclaim that Allison was deceased.
This conjecture on my part does NOT take into account the LIES, CUNNING and DECEIT factors, in which Baden Clay apparently excelled.
For anybody wondering, I have also spent a life time of dealing with LIARS. Questions have to be adjusted accordingly.

Hi LadyBird1 ..... see what you mean

I was told by a bus driver 12 months ago, that a bus driver who had accidentally hit a man who had walked out in front of his bus in Elizabeth St was so traumatized by the experienced that he had committed suicide (maybe it was the same accident!).
Trauma experienced by Baden Clay with what has happened to Allison seems to be nonexistent.

 

[LadyBird1]

Hi LadyBird1 ..... see what you mean

Hello Couldbe,
I was told by a bus driver 12 months ago, that a bus driver who had accidentally hit a man who had walked out in front of his bus in Elizabeth St was so traumatized by the experienced that he had committed suicide (maybe it was the same accident!).
Trauma experienced by Baden Clay with what has happened to Allison seems to be nonexistent.

It was indeed Elizabeth Street. It was in the early 70's. It was no fault of the driver. The man seemed to materialize out of no-where, he just never seemed to register that he was walking into a bus. I witnessed the lot. Though I tried to help the unconsciousness man, it never occurred to me that might be another casualty later.
The driver was pretty shook up. Clearly very conscientious. So sad to hear how this panned out. No-one ever asked for eye witness accounts.
My immature thoughts were focused on the fact that the man was not "killed by a bus", as reported, but he was killed as a result of walking into the path of a moving bus.

 

[Couldbe]

:angel: Kindness shown by you LadyBird1 is an example of what Allison was about too ........ "Brisbane's Story Bridge will be lit yellow on the night of Friday, July 31" http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...our-of-allison-badenclay-20150713-gibfv3.html

 

[HoolyDooly]

My Allison ribbons are still out on verandah front from Monday last.

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[LadyBird1]

Hi LadyBird1 ..... see what you mean

I was told by a bus driver 12 months ago, that a bus driver who had accidentally hit a man who had walked out in front of his bus in Elizabeth St was so traumatized by the experienced that he had committed suicide (maybe it was the same accident!).
Trauma experienced by Baden Clay with what has happened to Allison seems to be nonexistent.

Hi Couldbe, I am astounded by this post, been thinking it all day, and the amazing manner this matter has come to the fore.
The scene in its entirety has been with me all these years. For more than one reason.
Firstly the surreality of a matter that shouldn't have happened, but it did.
Secondly, I thought of this person every single time from that day to this when confronted with a first aid situation. This person became a datum for me in regards to the ABC of first aid.
The ABC in emergency first aid being thus:
A for Airway
B for Breathing
C for Circulation
In this instance the fellows head was twisted during his fall, thus completely obstructing his Airway. Once his head was aligned with his body, he was able to breathe freely..
Airway was restored.
Breathing properly then followed.
Circulation, meaning proper heart action with proper blood flow was good, according to pulse.
I was very sorry to learn of the outcome. This man also suffered a head injury, for which no amount of first aid or medical intervention may have altered the outcome.
Whenever confronted with emergencies such as heart attack, or drowning, it is easy to remember three things, A, B, C.
Establish each, and in that order, then many a life may be saved.
What a strange coincidence that ABC also means so much, to so many here!
Thank-you Couldbe! And thoughts with Allison Baden Clay!

 

[they'll get you]

Anyone know if the children would get compensated for victims of crime?

 

[BreakingNews]

Anyone know if the children would get compensated for victims of crime?

TGY, compensation should be paid, but not until all the appeal process is wrapped up.

 

[Susan12]

I have appreciated all posts from fellow "sleuthers"
I especially appreciated folks here commenting on the Court's recent proceedings.
Searching for key words.
Regarding the Courier Mail comment, and reading between the lines......
Baden Clay " very overconfident the Court will rule in his favour......"
Well that attitude is nothing new....
"Despite the Judge giving a SCATHING view...."
Ouch, did Baden Clay miss that bit?
Also, "Baden Clay's evidence was inconsistent with any notion at all that there was an unintended killing by him."
It might be noted that the Courier Mails source came from prison where a prison source said that Baden Clay had been "hanging out with nobodies" and like other inmates "just keeps to a few crims."
Anybody else here feeling cautiously optimistic?

I liked hearing the judges seemed unimpressed but I don't know if they will go with the 'we can't prove it wasn't an accident' version. Unless a murder is witnessed, aren't many circumstantial though? He might argue the motive for murder was nothing more than a motive for an argument that night. Still, he did not act like a man who did this by accident. He: was investigating her insurance in the days before (premeditation); told the mistress he'd be free soon (premeditation); searching for information on self incrimination in the days before (premeditation); didn't call 000 in a desperate attempt to save her (ensuring her death); seemed to know where he could take her body (premeditation?); came up with a carefully constructed story; seemed cool when the police arrived the next day and was off at work while police and SES were out looking. For someone who reportedly did it by accident he couldn't even use the distress of having done that to summon real tears in his 9 News interview. Her phone has not been found so that was obviously carefully dealt with also.

I think they should keep in mind too the jury did come back and ask the difference between murder and manslaughter again, so they did really weigh up the two before convicting him of murder.

GBC might have convinced them to downgrade the conviction by trying to explain each thing individually, but put together there is an air of intention about it. Even if we run with the accident theory by not calling for help he's ensured her death (if not licensed to confirm it) and he's discarded her body so terribly. At trial he insinuated she did it to herself. Anyone who knows the walk from her place to this location knows that cannot possibly be true. And where's the phone? How can someone do that to their wife and mother of three kids, even if they want to separate?

To my mind he cannot say he did nothing and knows nothing at trial and then go 'maybe it was an accident' to try to get downgraded later. He's trying for every possible scenario. Natural for him to want to but we shouldn't let him get away with that. The idea of him only charged for manslaughter and out in a year or two makes me sick. If he wants to run with this 'maybe it was an accident' theory I think the judges should make him explain every last detail of what happened, beginning to end, for them to even consider anything he has to say. If that's the truth then why not? He has lied so much that if he won't then I wouldn't have them even begin to believe it. They should have made him do that before downgrading to manslaughter in the first place to be honest.

 

[JLZ]

If it was an accident then GBC is not guilty of murder and not guilty of manslaughter. Even his lawyers aren't arguing that.

If the manslaughter verdict is upheld, GBC could nevertheless face a very long sentence. There is no ground for assuming he'll be 'out in a year or two'.

 

[Couldbe]

I agree with your sentiments Susan12

Just some further discussion:
With Baden Clay as the accused …. he and his Defence team during the Trial denied the charge and subsequently appealed the Verdict of Guilty.

….. in so doing, they have been focussing on the evidence brought by the Prosecution (not their own evidence) and what they see as errors by the Trial Judge and ultimately the conclusion of ‘Guilty of Murder’ by the Jury.

The Defence have said that the Jury could not have been ‘satisfied beyond reasonable doubt’ in arriving at their Verdict.
( i.e.: Inherent in the ‘Murder’ charge ‘Intent’ has not been proven).

The Qld Appeal Court Judges, have stated that ‘Intention’ was not established during the Trial, and their hypothesis is just ‘an example’ of what could have occurred, and concluded ‘Manslaughter’ to be the judged result.

Now the facts are:-
….. in hindsight, the Prosecution could have focussed more on the actions of Baden Clay prior to Allison’s death, but they had stated to the Trial Judge that they were not alleging premeditation;
…… they had dropped the ‘Interference with a Corpse’ charge;
…… As now stands: Murder conviction … changed to Manslaughter … High Court now examining the Trial proceedings and evidence therein, to allow the Appeal of the Prosecution and restore the Murder Verdict;
....... no admission (just denials and lies) by Baden Clay to any involvement;
…… not likely to have a Retrial;
…… regardless of the final conviction, there remains the options of appealing the Sentencing.

Susan12, JMO but I think even the Legal people believe he was somehow involved in Allison’s death.
There will always be those people who don’t believe Gerard was involved at all; maybe they would continue with their view, even if he made an admission of some sort.

 

[JLZ]

I found this helpful:

"There are two major types of manslaughter:
(1) Voluntary manslaughter where the person intended to kill or cause grievous bodily
harm or a bodily injury that endangers life, but where a partial defence applies such as
provocation or diminished responsibility or killing in an abusive relationship or
excessive self-defence.
(2) Involuntary manslaughter where the person lacked the necessary intent for murder.
The category of involuntary manslaughter can be sub-classified into (a) an unlawful intentional act lacking the intent for murder, and (b) a death caused by negligence lacking any intentional violence."
http://lib.oup.com.au/he/Law/hemming/HEM_CLG_AssesPrep_Ch6.pdf

Thus if A kills B but there is neither an unlawful intentional act nor negligence, then A is not even guilty of manslaughter.

FWIW, I think the jury got it right. Murder.

 

[BreakingNews]

It is interesting that GBC has not admitted to manslaughter. It was all solicitors/barristers/judges who changed the charge to manslaughter. Just saying...

 

[PrimeSuspect]

It is interesting that GBC has not admitted to manslaughter. It was all solicitors/barristers/judges who changed the charge to manslaughter. Just saying...

That's what I don't understand, Breaking. GBC hasn't admitted harming Allison or even suggesting it was a bizarre 'accident', he hasn't admitted disposing of the body. He never gave a reasonable reason for his injuries. He's denied knowing what happened to Allison after he supposedly spoke to her on the lounge the night before he reported her missing.
I would be interested to find out what case precedent his defence team are using, there must be one for it to be accepted by the judge, no? :thinking:

 

[Susan12]

If it was an accident then GBC is not guilty of murder and not guilty of manslaughter. Even his lawyers aren't arguing that.

If the manslaughter verdict is upheld, GBC could nevertheless face a very long sentence. There is no ground for assuming he'll be 'out in a year or two'.

That wasn't something I made up, the press was saying that he could be out in a year or two if manslaughter.

 

[Champagne4lulu]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...a58c3467e18a503f2f4711f983b2eea?client=safari

I wonder if this is good or bad news?

Gerard Baden-Clay decision handed down by High Court on August 31

David Murray, The Courier-Mail
28 minutes ago

THE High Court will next week hand down its decision in the Gerard Baden-Clay appeal.

The decision will be delivered in Canberra on Wednesday, August 31, less than a month after a hearing in Brisbane.

A court spokesman had previously estimated there would be a wait of three to six months.

<modsnip>

 

[HoolyDooly]

I am surprised also. Justice for Al.

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[HoolyDooly]

I've had my Allison yellow ribbons out on my front verandah since 5 judges went to deliberate. Thinking of the Dickies.

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[Fuskier]

David Murray &#8207;@TheMurrayD 3h3 hours ago

High Court can reinstate Gerard Baden-Clay murder conviction, otherwise the Court of Appeal will sentence him for manslaughter @couriermail

 

[Fuskier]

The Courier-Mail &#8207;@couriermail 3h3 hours ago

High Court to rule on Gerard #BadenClay sentence appeal on Wednesday, August 31 http://trib.al/BKmDvVm
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqsCyVuXYAADi0h.jpg

 

[Strangeworld]

Hi everyone :seeya: Counting down the days with you all...please please please be the right decision!!!