GUILTY Germany - Woman, 95, Indicted on 10,000 Counts, Accessory to Murder, 1943-1945 Nazi Camp, 5 Feb 2021

[LadyL]

The indictment against the woman, identified only as Irmgard F. under German privacy laws, followed a five-year investigation, prosecutors said Friday. Because she was under 21 at the time of the offenses she is accused of, they said, she would be tried in a juvenile court, where she is likely to receive a milder sentence.

The woman worked between June of 1943 and April of 1945 as a secretary for the camp commander at the Stutthof camp, 20 miles from the Polish city of Gdansk, which was known as Danzig under German rule at the time.

“It’s a real milestone in judicial accountability,” said Onur Özata, a lawyer representing survivors in the trial of the former camp secretary. “The fact that a secretary in this system, a bureaucratic cog, can be brought to justice is something new.”

Woman, 95, Indicted on 10,000 Counts of Accessory to Murder in Nazi Camp

 

[MajorHoople]

I'm not sure that I'm a big fan of this sort of prosecution after all this time. If I were on the jury I'd be skeptical of eyewitness memories.

 

[FrostOwl]

There is a book about "Female Administrators in the Third Reich", Female Administrators of the Third Reich | Rachel Century | Palgrave Macmillan

To have worked in a concentration camp, and to claim that that one did not know what was being done there, I find it difficult to believe. I think it's about that the person haven't wanted to acknowledge to themselves that what they had seen was wrong, or that they doesn't think what was happening there was morally wrong.

 

[Marg from Oz]

The Third Reich kept so many records of their infamous exploits that all their unsavoury doings were documented. They never envisioned that they were not the superior race. MOO

 

[Baciagalupo]

They all knew. My grandfather was a social-democrat and suffered greatly during Hitler's reign. He told many stories. He was very bitter after the war because so so many Nazis were back in high positions and didn't face any repercussions.

 

[Laughing]

I'm not sure that I'm a big fan of this sort of prosecution after all this time. If I were on the jury I'd be skeptical of eyewitness memories.

And -- what is a teenager supposed to do?

Not making excuses, mostly playing devil's advocate:

If she says NO do you think the invading army leaves her family alone, with enough food, clothes, and resources to heat their house?

Could she have been cooperating with Polish resistance?

Likely, we'll never know.

From the linked article:

Prosecutors said that she had admitted that much of the correspondence related to the camp and many files crossed her desk, and that she knew of some killings of inmates. But she maintains that she did not know that large numbers of the camp’s inmates were being killed by gas during the time she worked there. She has also said that her office window pointed away from the camp, so that she could not see what was going on, according to media reports.

It’s a highly complicated case

The article further states that she testified in her boss' trial decades ago, said boss was convicted & incarcerated.

Highly recommend:

The House on Garibaldi Street (TV Movie 1979) - IMDb

The House on Garibaldi Street

and the 2018 version:

Операція «Фінал» (2018) - IMDb

Operation Finale

 

[ChatteringBirds]

If she testified in her boss' trial decades ago, they knew where to find her. So why didn't they prosecute her then?

 

[Vern]

Interesting.
"Accessory To Murder."
Would the same hold true for hundreds of thousands US troops that fought in Vietnam? The US never declared war on Vietnam, and Vietnam never declared war on the US.
If US soldiers were just following orders, just like the Nazis, can anyone explain what the difference is between the US and Germany?

Not even an iota of similarity.

We military folks are legitimate targets during conflicts. Civilians are not.

Our duty is to follow all lawful orders. You'll find, with a very quick google search, that International Law, of which the US is a signatory, (Geneva Conventions) that the deliberate targeting, killing, raping, pillaging, plundering etc of civilians are WAR CRIMES. We are held to those standards in all conflict zones - whether war is declared or not. My Lai? <--- the deliberate targeting of civilians ergo the charges in that case.

That is what the German Officers and their co-conspirators such as this 18, 19 and 20 y/o (based on the years of her 'employment' and her current age) woman was charged with. They obeyed unlawful orders in whom they chose to exterminate/target. IE: Non-legitimate targets. Non-soldiers (legitimate targets). That is a War Crime. That is why the old, "I was just following orders" defence fails.

I'd also point out that once a soldier surrenders to his enemy and is no longer a threat, it would also be a war crime to summarily execute that POW as they are no longer considered to be a legitimate target.

 

[Vern]

I'm not sure that I'm a big fan of this sort of prosecution after all this time. If I were on the jury I'd be skeptical of eyewitness memories.

I've seen some pretty horrific things in my service. I can assure you that I will never forget them - even should I be so lucky as to live to the ripe age of 95.

And, I can also assure you that the Secretary who is now charged hasn't forgotten those images and her deeds either. How the heck she's slept so soundly all this time is beyond me.

 

[Marg from Oz]

Thanks Vern. Wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

[Gibbo214]

Interesting.
"Accessory To Murder."
Would the same hold true for hundreds of thousands US troops that fought in Vietnam? The US never declared war on Vietnam, and Vietnam never declared war on the US.
If US soldiers were just following orders, just like the Nazis, can anyone explain what the difference is between the US and Germany?

Vietnam was a shooting war. The two sides had a fighting chance. Jews rounded up at gunpoint, starved, worked to death or gassed had no fighting chance.

 

[FrostOwl]

Vietnam was a shooting war. The two sides had a fighting chance. Jews rounded up at gunpoint, starved, worked to death or gassed had no fighting chance.

Don't forget the other groups of victims in the German concentration camps: Soviet civilians, non-Jewish Polish civilians, people with disabilities living in institutions, Roma (up to 50% of all Roma living in Europe), Jehovah's Witnesses, homosexuals, so-called asocials, political opponents in Germany and occupied areas, Resistance activists, clergy. Check the numbers of killed here:
Documenting Numbers of Victims of the Holocaust and Nazi Persecution
Interestingly, the first mass transport to Auschwitz were not Jews, but a group of 748 Polish political prisoners and Resistance members, and most of them were Catholics.
First mass transport to Auschwitz concentration camp - Wikipedia

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I came across a movie by accident. Set during those times.

It really left an impression on me.

It's called "Address Unknown"

 

[FrostOwl]

The woman worked in the Stutthof camp, here's a link to info about it (read about the alleged soap production there):
Stutthof concentration camp - Wikipedia

 

[FrostOwl]

And -- what is a teenager supposed to do?

Not making excuses, mostly playing devil's advocate:

If she says NO do you think the invading army leaves her family alone, with enough food, clothes, and resources to heat their house?

Could she have been cooperating with Polish resistance?

Likely, we'll never know.

From the linked article:

Prosecutors said that she had admitted that much of the correspondence related to the camp and many files crossed her desk, and that she knew of some killings of inmates. But she maintains that she did not know that large numbers of the camp’s inmates were being killed by gas during the time she worked there. She has also said that her office window pointed away from the camp, so that she could not see what was going on, according to media reports.

It’s a highly complicated case

The article further states that she testified in her boss' trial decades ago, said boss was convicted & incarcerated.
<snip>

Judging from her given name she is of German ancestry, and if she had been born, and/or lived near the village of Stutthof, then she lived in the Free City of Danzig. The city had already had a Nazi majority in the city senate in 1936, and wanted to rejoin Germany, so when the German troops came in 1939, they were not seen as an "invading army", instead they were welcomed there by its German inhabitants. The persecution of Jews in Danzig had begun before 1939, and after the incorporation with Germany the Jewish and Polish citizens were classified as subhumans, and many were sent to concentration camps
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fre...//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig
Danzig was a part of Pomerania/ Prussia, and had shifted ownership between Poland or Germany since the late 15th century, and been part of the (German) Kingdom of Prussia since the 18th century. The population in the area were divided about 50/50 between Poles and German, and in Danzig close to 95% German in 1910.
Pomerelia - Wikipedia

Sorry for the history lesson, but it's unlikely that she would have cooperated with the Polish Resistance (they were the enemy), and I doubt that she, and her family, was suffering under Nazi German rule.

 

[Rocky1]

Not even an iota of similarity.

We military folks are legitimate targets during conflicts. Civilians are not.

Our duty is to follow all lawful orders. You'll find, with a very quick google search, that International Law, of which the US is a signatory, (Geneva Conventions) that the deliberate targeting, killing, raping, pillaging, plundering etc of civilians are WAR CRIMES. We are held to those standards in all conflict zones - whether war is declared or not. My Lai? <--- the deliberate targeting of civilians ergo the charges in that case.

That is what the German Officers and their co-conspirators such as this 18, 19 and 20 y/o (based on the years of her 'employment' and her current age) woman was charged with. They obeyed unlawful orders in whom they chose to exterminate/target. IE: Non-legitimate targets. Non-soldiers (legitimate targets). That is a War Crime. That is why the old, "I was just following orders" defence fails.

I'd also point out that once a soldier surrenders to his enemy and is no longer a threat, it would also be a war crime to summarily execute that POW as they are no longer considered to be a legitimate target.

Civilians were not protected under the Geneva Conventions until 1949, after WW2. From 1929 til 1949, the Hague/Geneva Conventions protected soldiers only.

Great point when addressing My Lai. Let's set aside the numerous carpet bombings of Hanoi, Napalm drops where thousands of innocent civilians were killed illegally under the Geneva Conventions, without prosecution. The entire Charlie Company that murdered over 500 women, children, and babies, ("just following orders") were either acquitted or had their cases dismissed. They weren't secretaries sitting behind a typewriter, they were the ones doing the murdering. Lt. Calley, who was the one giving the orders was given life in prison, yet served only 4 months in the stockade.

If you were to compare, and this women is found guilty, what do you think her sentence should be?

 

[Wild Rose]

Not everyone is tortured or even affected by the pain of others, even pain and torture that they alone caused. It is hard to imagine, but there it is.

 

[Rocky1]

Vietnam was a shooting war. The two sides had a fighting chance. Jews rounded up at gunpoint, starved, worked to death or gassed had no fighting chance.

A shooting war? If I remember right, the US had Fighter Jets, Bombers, Helicopters, and superior artillery. The North Vietnamese had Bamboo shoots, booby traps, and weapons they'd collect from the Americans, overall. True, they had SAM's and AK47's but I wouldn't say both sides had a fighting chance as far as weapons go. They had will, and knowledge of the land, and that was an advantage.
You're right though, the Jews had no chance at all.

 

[Rocky1]

Judging from her given name she is of German ancestry, and if she had been born, and/or lived near the village of Stutthof, then she lived in the Free City of Danzig. The city had already had a Nazi majority in the city senate in 1936, and wanted to rejoin Germany, so when the German troops came in 1939, they were not seen as an "invading army", instead they were welcomed there by its German inhabitants. The persecution of Jews in Danzig had begun before 1939, and after the incorporation with Germany the Jewish and Polish citizens were classified as subhumans, and many were sent to concentration camps
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fre...//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig
Danzig was a part of Pomerania/ Prussia, and had shifted ownership between Poland or Germany since the late 15th century, and been part of the (German) Kingdom of Prussia since the 18th century. The population in the area were divided about 50/50 between Poles and German, and in Danzig close to 95% German in 1910.
Pomerelia - Wikipedia

Sorry for the history lesson, but it's unlikely that she would have cooperated with the Polish Resistance (they were the enemy), and I doubt that she, and her family, was suffering under Nazi German rule.

Thanks for that. I love history lessons.

 

[Laughing]

Judging from her given name she is of German ancestry, and if she had been born, and/or lived near the village of Stutthof, then she lived in the Free City of Danzig. The city had already had a Nazi majority in the city senate in 1936, and wanted to rejoin Germany, so when the German troops came in 1939, they were not seen as an "invading army", instead they were welcomed there by its German inhabitants. The persecution of Jews in Danzig had begun before 1939, and after the incorporation with Germany the Jewish and Polish citizens were classified as subhumans, and many were sent to concentration camps
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fre...//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_City_of_Danzig
Danzig was a part of Pomerania/ Prussia, and had shifted ownership between Poland or Germany since the late 15th century, and been part of the (German) Kingdom of Prussia since the 18th century. The population in the area were divided about 50/50 between Poles and German, and in Danzig close to 95% German in 1910.
Pomerelia - Wikipedia

Sorry for the history lesson, but it's unlikely that she would have cooperated with the Polish Resistance (they were the enemy), and I doubt that she, and her family, was suffering under Nazi German rule.

Thank you, I too love a history lesson! Should have checked a map.

As the linked article stated, complicated.

(I'm sure that there were "cooperating" Poles who saw no options.)