Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

SecretAgentMan

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He could be secretive and they still be crimes of passion. I think the fact that they were all petite was because they were the type of women he was attracted to. They may have reminded him of someone from a past relationship. I feel that he would be able to overpower most women, if my theory about him and Unidentified Asian Male were true.

I agree that the high payments are what drew them in, but he gained their confidence and trust as someone who was trying to help them. He surely insisted that they keep their relationship confidential. I'm not sure they would have trusted him to the point where they lowered their safety precautions (i.e., cell phone, driver, etc..), unless they were able to meet him more than once without incident.

Had he met up with them before without incident, and came off as someone who was genuinely concerned about them and paid them handsomely, why should he be suspicious to them?

That is why I suspect these were crimes of passion. They were not afraid of him until the dark side of his personality showed up, and at that time it was too late.



I guess we will agree to disagree on some aspects......:)
 

White_Rabbit

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I guess we will agree to disagree on some aspects......:)
No worries.. I hope disagreements can get us closer to finding the truth. In the case of Unsub and the GB4 it can be confusing, because though I believe these were crimes of passion, he was very methodic and calculating, to the point of being ritualistic, in the way he disposed of them.
 

LR1

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just a copy cat or someone just being cruel possibly someone who didn't like him already and knew this would be twisting the knife?
This will be confusing but I'll give it a shot...I only see the 30 calls reported on by thedailybeast, they are parroted here and there in message boards and maybe a podcast, but the only print or tv media is that single article. They are mentioned in Kolkers book but he appears to be using tdb reporting. The reporters who pinned the article (among others) are in the acknowledgments of the book. Here are the two below for comparison

Daily Beast article; (Edited for focus but in the order the quotes appeared)

Detectives and family members combed through her phone records. Lynn discovered that a few calls were made to the escort service James Bond Entertainment. Lynn's fiancé Jeff called the number and spoke to a man who told him that Barthelemy had worked with him on a number of occasions.

A few of the numbers belonged to her regular clients, one of whom was a married man who told police that Barthelemy didn't show up for their scheduled date at a motel in Jersey City.

Other numbers were traced to throwaway phones purchased in Manhattan. One of the phones was linked to the name Mickey Mouse.

Around the same time, Terry said he began to get his own taunting phone calls. His calls were from a "white guy," he said.

"He was threatening me," recalled Terry. "He said, you like to do some crazy stuff with Melissa, I know where you be at. Most of the time he seemed to be drunk. He knew who I was. He knew I had tattoos on my back. Maybe he felt [Melissa] was doing something he didn't like." Terry said the anonymous caller called him more than 30 times over a period of eight months.

Lost Girls book;

The phone calls to Amanda had been well covered in Buffalo in 2009, and the media circled back to Melissa’s family for more details. One reporter even reached Blaze, who, quoted by his given name, Johnny Terry, claimed he’d also received strange calls—about thirty, he said, over eight months—from someone he described as a “white guy.” “He was threatening me,” he said. “He said, ‘You liked to do somecrazy stuff with Melissa. I know where you be at.’ ” The police traced the caller’s number not to Melissa’s cell but to a disposable phone registered in the name of Mickey Mouse.

Which brings me to the second point in need of clarification of why did the book attribute the MM burner to the calls to john terry. That's not what TDB article states. He may have sources for this claim but it's not clear to me that he does.

My only other reason to doubt the calls were from the killer is the impression I got from listening to one of this site's radio shows from years ago when Josh and Rachel were on. Blog talk radio I believe it was. They seemed to scoff at the idea when the question was raised. It's been a while but I want to say the implications were, the calls were made from people in search of what had happened to Melissa.

I'll gladly stand to be corrected if anyone, including Bob, Josh or Rache, would like to poke their head in to clarify.
 

White_Rabbit

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This will be confusing but I'll give it a shot...I only see the 30 calls reported on by thedailybeast, they are parroted here and there in message boards and maybe a podcast, but the only print or tv media is that single article. They are mentioned in Kolkers book but he appears to be using tdb reporting. The reporters who pinned the article (among others) are in the acknowledgments of the book. Here are the two below for comparison

Daily Beast article; (Edited for focus but in the order the quotes appeared)

Detectives and family members combed through her phone records. Lynn discovered that a few calls were made to the escort service James Bond Entertainment. Lynn's fiancé Jeff called the number and spoke to a man who told him that Barthelemy had worked with him on a number of occasions.

A few of the numbers belonged to her regular clients, one of whom was a married man who told police that Barthelemy didn't show up for their scheduled date at a motel in Jersey City.

Other numbers were traced to throwaway phones purchased in Manhattan. One of the phones was linked to the name Mickey Mouse.

Around the same time, Terry said he began to get his own taunting phone calls. His calls were from a "white guy," he said.


"He was threatening me," recalled Terry. "He said, you like to do some crazy stuff with Melissa, I know where you be at. Most of the time he seemed to be drunk. He knew who I was. He knew I had tattoos on my back. Maybe he felt [Melissa] was doing something he didn't like." Terry said the anonymous caller called him more than 30 times over a period of eight months.

Lost Girls book;

The phone calls to Amanda had been well covered in Buffalo in 2009, and the media circled back to Melissa’s family for more details. One reporter even reached Blaze, who, quoted by his given name, Johnny Terry, claimed he’d also received strange calls—about thirty, he said, over eight months—from someone he described as a “white guy.” “He was threatening me,” he said. “He said, ‘You liked to do somecrazy stuff with Melissa. I know where you be at.’ ” The police traced the caller’s number not to Melissa’s cell but to a disposable phone registered in the name of Mickey Mouse.

Which brings me to the second point in need of clarification of why did the book attribute the MM burner to the calls to john terry. That's not what TDB article states. He may have sources for this claim but it's not clear to me that he does.

My only other reason to doubt the calls were from the killer is the impression I got from listening to one of this site's radio shows from years ago when Josh and Rachel were on. Blog talk radio I believe it was. They seemed to scoff at the idea when the question was raised. It's been a while but I want to say the implications were, the calls were made from people in search of what had happened to Melissa.

I'll gladly stand to be corrected if anyone, including Bob, Josh or Rache, would like to poke their head in to clarify.
Could the killer have gone through Melissa's phone and seen contact information and pictures of Johnny Terry, text conversations between Johnny Terry and Melissa? Then purchase a burner phone under the name Mickey Mouse which he used to taunt Johnny Terry?
 

LR1

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Could the killer have gone through Melissa's phone and seen contact information and pictures of Johnny Terry, text conversations between Johnny Terry and Melissa? Then purchase a burner phone under the name Mickey Mouse which he used to taunt Johnny Terry?
I guess he could have, but I have reservations of the credibility when such sensational claims are made with little to no follow up. I guess it's possible the cops put the kibosh on this would be incredible revelation. There's been much written and televised from reputable sources in these last years in regard to this case but not one peep about this fantastical claim.
 

PingTheRouter

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Wouldn't have been a copy cat I don't think.. Melissa was still a missing person, and not known publicly until the bodies were found Dec. 2010.


i wasn't guessing as such, i was trying to figure out what the OP was referring to as they left it open ended

the calls were made from people in search of what had happened to Melissa.

so people just inserting themselves in to a situation, it does happen with crimes that get some attention either locally or nationally
 
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LR1

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so people just inserting themselves in to a situation, it does happen with crimes that get some attention either locally or nationally
I'm assuming loved ones thinking he might have some answers.
 

3Patriots

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Yes! That's the closest station to Gilgo, Oak Beach, etc. If the victim was being picked up by LISK, perhaps this station was chosen by him, not just for the close proximity to Oak Beach, etc., but also because it's less crowded? JMO, just guessing.

LIRR Station Map
Babylon is a little busier. Lindenhurst is a more discreet location, especially if you subscribe to the theory that LISK may be easily recognized by a fair number in the general public.
 

3Patriots

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Apologies if this has already been discussed, but if someone local was driving to Oak Beach from Manhattan (as did MP and SG) would they have taken the exit for the bridge on the west end of the island? It seems logical if someone was taking the train that they would go to the Babylon station, then get a ride or taxi from there to Oak Beach. Coming by car, that seems to be the long way? IDK, that's why I'm asking. It has to do with a hypothesis I have about the location of the bodies - SG vs the others. TIA
Nope, I'd still take RM Causeway AT THAT TIME OF DAY. Coming down Meadowbrook then Ocean at that time of night, could end up with some venison in your grill. Not sure what GPS would say, though.
 

3Patriots

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It's been 30 years (at least) but I used to make that trip all the time. If I was driving from Manhattan to Oak Beach I'd take the Midtown tunnel out of Manhattan, take the LI Expressway until the Southern State Parkway exit, then take the Southern State Parkway to Route 231 south to Babylon, then Montauk Hwy east until the Robert Moses Beach exit. Having said that, I see that Google Maps does it differently, staying on the LIE for far too long, imo. Still, there's plenty of ways to do it, including taking the Meadowbrook Parkway south in Nassau county, right down to Ocean Parkway (which is, um, desolate).
LIE doesn't have a SSP exit. LIE to Sagtikos, which for these intents and purposes becomes RM Causeway, which dumps onto Ocean Parkway right in front of Oak Beach. Your way is more convoluted and would take longer. There's honestly no reason to ever NOT take a highway to Oak Beach.
 

3Patriots

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Thanks for that information. I've been wondering about where the LISK came from as he dumped the bodies along Ocean Parkway. For the Gilgo Beach 4, he was probably driving from east to west, likely having come over on the Robert Moses Causeway bridge.

And if he lived fairly close to the dump site? IDK yet, but there's something relevant about the direction of travel when dumping the Gilgo Beach 4.
Not much bramble on the eastbound side. It's mostly dunes with some beachgrass, highly visible and more open to foot traffic. Westbound side is all thick brush and/or marsh, not conducive to regular foot traffic.
 

3Patriots

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There are many ways to reach Oak Beach from Midtown Manhattan, but to reach Ocean Parkway from the west it would make more sense to take either Meadowbrook or Wantagh Parkways. The next parkway to intersect with Ocean Parkway after Wantagh Parkway would be Robert Moses Causeway, which would bring you past Oak Beach. From Robert Moses Causeway you would have to travel back a few miles west on Ocean Parkway and use the turnaround lane to go east again.
Approx 1.5 from exit ramp from RM Bridge to gate at OB. This INCLUDES the double-up of going to the turnaround. Negligible when compared to coming down MSP. (WSP makes no sense, can't imagine any scenario where GPS or anyone with half a brain would take WSP)
 

PreciousDust

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LIE doesn't have a SSP exit.

I don't know, I've driven to West Islip a million times, maybe it's just a sign for Southern State with some other hook into it. Main thing about it, coming from Manhattan, is that you want to get out of the traffic, get off the LI and veer south - but not while still in Nassau where it's still so congested.
 

White_Rabbit

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As I shared in other threads, someone suggested that those pings could have been from the phone being on a boat. I think that is highly plausible and should not be ruled out.
I too have thought about the possibility of Unsub bringing the victim’s bodies to the disposal ground by boat.
 

3Patriots

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I too have thought about the possibility of Unsub bringing the victim’s bodies to the disposal ground by boat.
Given where a boat would need to anchor near there, it's far too laborious to then traverse the terrain. Unless there was some other mode of moving the bodies once on land, I see this as terribly unlikely.
I believe GB4 were moved in real haste, at the same time. GB4 methodic placement and spacing, in addition to the burlap, point to contemporaneous placement. Important pieces of evidence being left behind - like leaving a belt w MBB - also point to hasty actions.
 

Sleuth_Noob

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Given where a boat would need to anchor near there, it's far too laborious to then traverse the terrain. Unless there was some other mode of moving the bodies once on land, I see this as terribly unlikely.
I believe GB4 were moved in real haste, at the same time. GB4 methodic placement and spacing, in addition to the burlap, point to contemporaneous placement. Important pieces of evidence being left behind - like leaving a belt w MBB - also point to hasty actions.
Yes…the belt. It has been strangely absent from SCPD’s new transparency in regards to the case, in terms of appealing to the public for additional information (rememer, the public only ever saw blown up images of 1/2 inch x 1/2 inch embossed initials from the belt)…
That sort of makes sense, I guess, in that it is one of only a handful of pieces of actual physical evidence; but on the other hand it doesn’t jive with the new full discolsure/transparency (remember, former SCPD Commissioner Hart aways claimed that the purpose of releasing the photo was in an effort to obtain additional info from the public)…
So maybe there is good reason to not produce the actual belt, or reveal more of it if the belt contains (potentially) dna?
 

White_Rabbit

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I believe GB4 were moved in real haste, at the same time. GB4 methodic placement and spacing, in addition to the burlap, point to contemporaneous placement. Important pieces of evidence being left behind - like leaving a belt w MBB - also point to hasty actions.
I’m inclined to agree with you regarding traveling by boat.

I’ve given a lot of thought to your idea that the bodies were moved in haste and contemporaneously placed. It doesn’t seem to jibe with the fact that all of the GB4 went missing at different times, months and even years apart from each other.

The GB4 were all petite, similar in age, and it’s been reported that they all had hazel eyes. Could they have reminded him of someone from a past relationship?

My thought was that the methodic placement and spacing suggested that he disposed of the bodies in a slow and calculated manner, almost ritualistic, the burlap and the belt being some sort of symbolism, occult like, understood by him, the initials on the belt being significant, the fact that they were placed near the water, carefully wrapped in burlap, as if these women had more meaning to him beyond just a thrill kill or sexual deviation. Could that area near Gilgo Beach have further significance to him than just a convenient place to dispose of the victims?

The anger that he felt for the victims is best expressed in his phone calls to Melissa’s younger sister when he says, “Do you know what your sister is doing? She’s a *advertiser censored*!”

I feel that he is projecting his anger from a past heart breaking relationship.

He seems to be replaying the relationship over and over again and attempting to change the outcome.

He must be a white male, in his mid to late forties by now, and still living somewhere on the south shore of Long Island. He must live a low key life and be able to hide the dark side of himself. He could still be replaying the heartbreaking relationship or finally found a woman that does not trigger his rage.
 
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3Patriots

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I’m inclined to agree with you regarding traveling by boat.

I’ve given a lot of thought to your idea that the bodies were moved in haste and contemporaneously placed. It doesn’t seem to jibe with the fact that all of the GB4 went missing at different times, months and even years apart from each other.

The GB4 were all petite, similar in age, and it’s been reported that they all had hazel eyes. Could they have reminded him of someone from a past relationship?

My thought was that the methodic placement and spacing suggested that he disposed of the bodies in a slow and calculated manner, almost ritualistic, the burlap and the belt being some sort of symbolism, occult like, understood by him, the initials on the belt being significant, the fact that they were placed near the water, carefully wrapped in burlap, as if these women had more meaning to him beyond just a thrill kill or sexual deviation. Could that area near Gilgo Beach have further significance to him than just a convenient place to dispose of the victims?

The anger that he felt for the victims is best expressed in his phone calls to Melissa’s younger sister when he says, “Do you know what your sister is doing? She’s a *advertiser censored*!”

I feel that he is projecting his anger from a past heart breaking relationship.

He seems to be replaying the relationship over and over again and attempting to change the outcome.

He must be a white male, in his mid to late forties by now, and still living somewhere on the south shore of Long Island. He must live a low key life and be able to hide the dark side of himself. He could still be replaying the heartbreaking relationship or finally found a woman that does not trigger his rage.
I reconcile the disappearance dates with the hasty moves as GB4 being elsewhere (backyard, basement, garage, etc) and LISK was forced to move them hastily given a sudden and/or unexpected potential for discovery in their initial storage area. In lay terms, "Uh oh, I might get caught with these in my own home. Let me bundle them up quickly, put them in my vehicle, and place them one by one on the side of this road in the middle of the night."
 

White_Rabbit

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I reconcile the disappearance dates with the hasty moves as GB4 being elsewhere (backyard, basement, garage, etc) and LISK was forced to move them hastily given a sudden and/or unexpected potential for discovery in their initial storage area. In lay terms, "Uh oh, I might get caught with these in my own home. Let me bundle them up quickly, put them in my vehicle, and place them one by one on the side of this road in the middle of the night."
I’m interested in this idea, but I need more details.

What are your thoughts on the LISK case overall? For instance, Do you believe all of the victims were killed by the same person?

What, to your mind, is the nature of the crime, and that of the perpetrator?

With regard to any one of the GB4 victims, how would you theorize the murder and subsequent disposal of the body occurred?
 
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