Gilgo Beach 4 Only (GB4)

[3Patriots]

There are many ways to reach Oak Beach from Midtown Manhattan, but to reach Ocean Parkway from the west it would make more sense to take either Meadowbrook or Wantagh Parkways. The next parkway to intersect with Ocean Parkway after Wantagh Parkway would be Robert Moses Causeway, which would bring you past Oak Beach. From Robert Moses Causeway you would have to travel back a few miles west on Ocean Parkway and use the turnaround lane to go east again.

Approx 1.5 from exit ramp from RM Bridge to gate at OB. This INCLUDES the double-up of going to the turnaround. Negligible when compared to coming down MSP. (WSP makes no sense, can't imagine any scenario where GPS or anyone with half a brain would take WSP)

 

[PreciousDust]

LIE doesn't have a SSP exit.

I don't know, I've driven to West Islip a million times, maybe it's just a sign for Southern State with some other hook into it. Main thing about it, coming from Manhattan, is that you want to get out of the traffic, get off the LI and veer south - but not while still in Nassau where it's still so congested.

 

[PillowofWinds]

As I shared in other threads, someone suggested that those pings could have been from the phone being on a boat. I think that is highly plausible and should not be ruled out.

 

[White_Rabbit]

As I shared in other threads, someone suggested that those pings could have been from the phone being on a boat. I think that is highly plausible and should not be ruled out.

I too have thought about the possibility of Unsub bringing the victim’s bodies to the disposal ground by boat.

 

[3Patriots]

I too have thought about the possibility of Unsub bringing the victim’s bodies to the disposal ground by boat.

Given where a boat would need to anchor near there, it's far too laborious to then traverse the terrain. Unless there was some other mode of moving the bodies once on land, I see this as terribly unlikely.
I believe GB4 were moved in real haste, at the same time. GB4 methodic placement and spacing, in addition to the burlap, point to contemporaneous placement. Important pieces of evidence being left behind - like leaving a belt w MBB - also point to hasty actions.

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

Given where a boat would need to anchor near there, it's far too laborious to then traverse the terrain. Unless there was some other mode of moving the bodies once on land, I see this as terribly unlikely.
I believe GB4 were moved in real haste, at the same time. GB4 methodic placement and spacing, in addition to the burlap, point to contemporaneous placement. Important pieces of evidence being left behind - like leaving a belt w MBB - also point to hasty actions.

Yes…the belt. It has been strangely absent from SCPD’s new transparency in regards to the case, in terms of appealing to the public for additional information (rememer, the public only ever saw blown up images of 1/2 inch x 1/2 inch embossed initials from the belt)…
That sort of makes sense, I guess, in that it is one of only a handful of pieces of actual physical evidence; but on the other hand it doesn’t jive with the new full discolsure/transparency (remember, former SCPD Commissioner Hart aways claimed that the purpose of releasing the photo was in an effort to obtain additional info from the public)…
So maybe there is good reason to not produce the actual belt, or reveal more of it if the belt contains (potentially) dna?

 

[White_Rabbit]

I believe GB4 were moved in real haste, at the same time. GB4 methodic placement and spacing, in addition to the burlap, point to contemporaneous placement. Important pieces of evidence being left behind - like leaving a belt w MBB - also point to hasty actions.

I’m inclined to agree with you regarding traveling by boat.

I’ve given a lot of thought to your idea that the bodies were moved in haste and contemporaneously placed. It doesn’t seem to jibe with the fact that all of the GB4 went missing at different times, months and even years apart from each other.

The GB4 were all petite, similar in age, and it’s been reported that they all had hazel eyes. Could they have reminded him of someone from a past relationship?

My thought was that the methodic placement and spacing suggested that he disposed of the bodies in a slow and calculated manner, almost ritualistic, the burlap and the belt being some sort of symbolism, occult like, understood by him, the initials on the belt being significant, the fact that they were placed near the water, carefully wrapped in burlap, as if these women had more meaning to him beyond just a thrill kill or sexual deviation. Could that area near Gilgo Beach have further significance to him than just a convenient place to dispose of the victims?

The anger that he felt for the victims is best expressed in his phone calls to Melissa’s younger sister when he says, “Do you know what your sister is doing? She’s a *advertiser censored*!”

I feel that he is projecting his anger from a past heart breaking relationship.

He seems to be replaying the relationship over and over again and attempting to change the outcome.

He must be a white male, in his mid to late forties by now, and still living somewhere on the south shore of Long Island. He must live a low key life and be able to hide the dark side of himself. He could still be replaying the heartbreaking relationship or finally found a woman that does not trigger his rage.

 

[3Patriots]

I’m inclined to agree with you regarding traveling by boat.

I’ve given a lot of thought to your idea that the bodies were moved in haste and contemporaneously placed. It doesn’t seem to jibe with the fact that all of the GB4 went missing at different times, months and even years apart from each other.

The GB4 were all petite, similar in age, and it’s been reported that they all had hazel eyes. Could they have reminded him of someone from a past relationship?

My thought was that the methodic placement and spacing suggested that he disposed of the bodies in a slow and calculated manner, almost ritualistic, the burlap and the belt being some sort of symbolism, occult like, understood by him, the initials on the belt being significant, the fact that they were placed near the water, carefully wrapped in burlap, as if these women had more meaning to him beyond just a thrill kill or sexual deviation. Could that area near Gilgo Beach have further significance to him than just a convenient place to dispose of the victims?

The anger that he felt for the victims is best expressed in his phone calls to Melissa’s younger sister when he says, “Do you know what your sister is doing? She’s a *advertiser censored*!”

I feel that he is projecting his anger from a past heart breaking relationship.

He seems to be replaying the relationship over and over again and attempting to change the outcome.

He must be a white male, in his mid to late forties by now, and still living somewhere on the south shore of Long Island. He must live a low key life and be able to hide the dark side of himself. He could still be replaying the heartbreaking relationship or finally found a woman that does not trigger his rage.

I reconcile the disappearance dates with the hasty moves as GB4 being elsewhere (backyard, basement, garage, etc) and LISK was forced to move them hastily given a sudden and/or unexpected potential for discovery in their initial storage area. In lay terms, "Uh oh, I might get caught with these in my own home. Let me bundle them up quickly, put them in my vehicle, and place them one by one on the side of this road in the middle of the night."

 

[White_Rabbit]

I reconcile the disappearance dates with the hasty moves as GB4 being elsewhere (backyard, basement, garage, etc) and LISK was forced to move them hastily given a sudden and/or unexpected potential for discovery in their initial storage area. In lay terms, "Uh oh, I might get caught with these in my own home. Let me bundle them up quickly, put them in my vehicle, and place them one by one on the side of this road in the middle of the night."

I’m interested in this idea, but I need more details.

What are your thoughts on the LISK case overall? For instance, Do you believe all of the victims were killed by the same person?

What, to your mind, is the nature of the crime, and that of the perpetrator?

With regard to any one of the GB4 victims, how would you theorize the murder and subsequent disposal of the body occurred?

 

[PillowofWinds]

I was pondering the possibility that the actual "date" was on a boat. Like, "hey I will pick you up or meet you and we will go out for a cruise on my boat". Not necessarily the bodies were transported on the boat to where they were discovered. I have also considered that Hemlock Cove is a popular spot with boaters but if the maps are accurate, it seems unlikely that they were taken off a boat and brought that close to the road. I have always suspected that there many bodies buried in the bay or out in the ocean I think it is extremely likely that there are a lot more victims out there, unknown to us.

 

[Bose]

I agree, largely, @PillowofWinds. It's possible that a boat ride was offered. Only thing I remember from the time though, was that the area (over by where boats were docked, Cedar Beach Marina) in the summer had visitors late into the night, and also campers parked. So, anything happening there, at the dock, would be less likely. Out on the water? Possible. Hemlock Cove I think was a place to go clamming(?) I agree, would be unlikely to be taken off a boat and brought that close to the road, as you said.

 

[3Patriots]

I’m interested in this idea, but I need more details.

What are your thoughts on the LISK case overall? For instance, Do you believe all of the victims were killed by the same person?

What, to your mind, is the nature of the crime, and that of the perpetrator?

With regard to any one of the GB4 victims, how would you theorize the murder and subsequent disposal of the body occurred?

GB4 - same killer(s), obviously
SG - excited delirium which could have been exacerbated by drugs. Ultimate physiologic episode and/or trapped in marsh. Still undecided if connected to GB4, though I lean toward them being related. I can argue it either way.
Remainder of vics I do NOT believe are from the GB4 killer(s).
Let's face it, whomever killed GB4 didn't only hire those 4 sex workers. I believe GB4 are those who saw/figured out that the John(s) were locally relevant individuals and then made it known. Whether they tried to blackmail, or were simply silenced because they recognized someone, I believe this was their demise.
As far as placement, I have a hard time believing that he kills the first of GB4 in 2007, wraps her in burlap, then leaves her there; only to do the very same thing a year later, and then twice in 2010. (My apologies if timeline is off). More likely that they were elsewhere, had to be moved, and were wrapped and transported together in haste with available resources ie burlap.

 

[SecretAgentMan]

I agree, largely, @PillowofWinds. It's possible that a boat ride was offered. Only thing I remember from the time though, was that the area (over by where boats were docked, Cedar Beach Marina) in the summer had visitors late into the night, and also campers parked. So, anything happening there, at the dock, would be less likely. Out on the water? Possible. Hemlock Cove I think was a place to go clamming(?) I agree, would be unlikely to be taken off a boat and brought that close to the road, as you said.

Yeah, I highly doubt it the killer would risk taking someone on a boat at night & risk being seen, but also the craziness of murdering her on the boat & then carrying a body off the boat to dump on land, makes absolutely no sense.

If he killed anyone on his boat, the body would be dumped in the sea. The bodies were dropped of by either car/van/truck.

 

[White_Rabbit]

GB4 - same killer(s), obviously
SG - excited delirium which could have been exacerbated by drugs. Ultimate physiologic episode and/or trapped in marsh. Still undecided if connected to GB4, though I lean toward them being related. I can argue it either way.
Remainder of vics I do NOT believe are from the GB4 killer(s).
Let's face it, whomever killed GB4 didn't only hire those 4 sex workers. I believe GB4 are those who saw/figured out that the John(s) were locally relevant individuals and then made it known. Whether they tried to blackmail, or were simply silenced because they recognized someone, I believe this was their demise.
As far as placement, I have a hard time believing that he kills the first of GB4 in 2007, wraps her in burlap, then leaves her there; only to do the very same thing a year later, and then twice in 2010. (My apologies if timeline is off). More likely that they were elsewhere, had to be moved, and were wrapped and transported together in haste with available resources ie burlap.

I completely agree that the GB4 were murdered by the same person, who I refer to as Unsub. I also believe Unsub was responsible for the murder of Unidentified Asian Male who's death was estimated to be in 2006. 2006 would be the beginning of the pattern of murders of the GB4. Unidentified Asian Male was estimated to be murdered in 2006 and the cause of death was blunt force trauma. 2006 is consistent with the beginning of the GB4 timeline, and blunt force trauma is consistent with Unsub's personality profile (explosive rage), he was triggered being duped by a transvestite. It could be that Unsub is subconsciously committing these murders on the anniversary of a tragic event in his life, an event that occurred at the beginning of summer, and that the victims resemble someone from a past relationship?

The women also shared other striking similarities. "They're all 4' 11, very petite …hazel green eyes," says Varrone. Inside the mind of a murderer: New clues in the hunt for the Long Island serial killer

Unidentified Asian Male - Estimated Death 2006
Maureen Brainard-Barnes - Missing July 9, 2007
Melissa Barthelemy - Missing July 10, 2009
Megan Waterman - Missing June 6, 2010
Amber Lynn Costello - Missing September 2, 2010

I believe that there was a major event in Unsub's life in 2008 (i.e., incarceration, institutionalized, death of a close friend or relative, etc..)

Could it be that the wrapping in burlap and placing of each victim in an area that holds some significance to him is ceremonial?

I agree that Shannan Gilbert was in a excited delirium exacerbated by drugs, but also believe that a surge of adrenaline caused by a real or perceived attempt on her life contributed to her state of mind. The idea of her running into and being trapped in the marsh is plausible, but then how does Peter Hackett fit into that scenario? We know by his phone calls to Mari Gilbert that he had some sort of involvement with Shannan. There are sworn affidavits by other residents of Oak Beach implicating him. He stopped himself while answering Erin Moriarty of 48 hours' question about him calling Mari Gilbert. Peter Hackett is then quoted as saying, “Yeah, I'm sure I did. When you give … look let me not get into it.”

We know that Joseph Brewer asserted his 5th amendment right to almost every question regarding his involvement with Shannan Gilbert.

We know that the direction Shannan ran that morning lead her to within a 2 minute walk to Peter Hackett's residence.

Peter Hackett, Michael Pak and Joseph Brewer ail have more information than they are disclosing.

As for the remainder of the victims I am an in agreement with you. I suspect John Bittrolff because of the ties to Manorville between Jessica Taylor and Valerie Mack.

 

[trujac]

wrong thread

 

[trujac]

That would be Amanda

The first big problem with the "homividal john" theory is Maureen Brainard-Barnes. No actual sign, she took on a john more this night. The trace gets lost at the bus terminal.
Then again, the question is, how would the killer know there was a fitting victim available at this bus terminal at this time of the night? The answer is simple, he must have stalked her and snatched her when he was good and ready and the situation enabled him to do so.

So if we look at that, we have to compare this to the other victims. Melissa Barthelmy was last seen waiting for a car bringing her to her next client. I've read nothing about this client was identified, but if LE identified him, we wouldn't hear it anywhere because they would keep it a secret and be it for keeping others from doing their job. So by all I know, there are two possibilities: Either the john killed her or she was snatched on the way back. The "homicidal john" would make me stretch the laws of probability again, because I would need to connect all four victims to the same john witch is unlikely since media reported, LE was looking for one case into a state trooper or something, but not in the other cases. Also would a local john live all the year in the area and that appears to be contradicted by the timeline. But a stalker could have snatched her on the way back and that is consistent with Maureen Brainard-Barnes.

The even bigger problem for a "homicidal john" theory is Megan Waterman. She offered, opposite to the other three victims, female domination. The last thing, this guy wants is to be dominated. So he certainly didn't book her earlier for dates. However, a stalker, who had no previous sexual contact with her, fits the bill once more. He could have snatched her on the way back, if she visited a client at all that night. Think about cell phone for a moment. Who would keep the phone? The prostitute or the pimp, who would have it most of the time anyway? Clearly, Cruz would say, she ran her business alone and he only helped her from time to time, but is that credible? By all means, a pimp needs to stay in control over the girl's business, right. So, once more, we end up with the same situation, only we have three possibilities:

- She was killed by a john, which makes us stretch probabilities again because he would need to be by chance the killer of the other victims too and one wasn't booked anymore after her last sign of life. Only it would be a john now, who is a sadist and a masochist at the same time and, for the first time, this john would act actually in Long Island on the islands.

- She was snatched by a stalker on the way back from a client. This would fit a stalker.

- She wasn't going to a client. All we know is, she wandered out of the hotel. She could have gone the same to the convenience store not far away. Which would have, because of the empty spot near to the hotel, opened the window for a stalker type as well.

Now we have still Amber Lynn Costello. First thing to notice is, she wasn't that long in the area and if she didn't ad on the first day and attracted this "homicidal john" on the first day, there was not enough time to groom her extensively. Even more, the story of a john offering $1500 and calling till she gave in to go to him has a certain ring to it. This indicates some kind of desperation. This is not the mindset of someone, who would think "you know one, you know all" in the sense of viewing them as replaceable. She had in inherent value to this caller and that is diametrical contradictory to the mindset that showed up in the dump site later. And once more, a "homicidal john" would stretch the laws of probability because at this point, he would have needed already to run into Maureen by accident and be at the same time a sadist and a masochist. While a stalker, whose attention was stirred in their usual business area, could fit the bill in all points.
But then, this is only my opinion. Till the guy is caught, nobody will know for sure and maybe not in all details even then.

On a half-related sidenote: I suspect myself to have maybe a little glitch in the victimology. It appears as if the victims had one details more in common than being female and looking Caucasian. They appear all to be not too tall (from small to barely average). This could change the profile a little in two aspects:
- the height of the killer
- and it opens the door for another underlying motive in the victim selection
But I'm not sure yet, I need to get some more information before I rewrite the whole profile and then it would stay in many points still the same.

wrong thread

 

[Girlinterrupted]

I just finished the majority of unredacted info from the original Akeem Cruz and Robert Blake cases available thru Pacer.
I know this is the GB4 thread but I'm posting here bc I think this can be traced to other victims - not just Megan.
Megan started out w Blake. Blake passed her on to Cruz. Cruz, Blake and the rest of their "group" - quotes around group bc this was not just a bunch of friends...they were an organized system. I'm not calling out any affiliations bc I can't verify 100% whether red, blue, LK etc.

But in Megan's case, she was making mtiple trips back and forth btwn NY and Maine via Concordia bus. Why the bus? They had vehicles. They could've driven and easily cut down on travel time.
A Concordia bus isn't going to get pulled over. The passengers on a bus are not going to run the risk of being searched or having their id's checked.
In the Akeem Cruz court stuff it is uncontested that Cruz was prostituting Megan in both NY and Maine, but more importantly, he was using her to transport drugs back and forth. She was carrying bags inside of her. Cavity transporting. Akeem Cruz learned everything from his uncle Robert Blake.
So if Akeem was having his girls do this, so was Blake.
And this goes to a bigger picture.
Is it possible that other handlers like Khalil White or John Terry were following the same pattern? Could they have known eachother - either directly or through mutual suppliers.
Media concentrates on the "sex worker" aspect because sex sells. But is it possible these victims were also being used to move narcotics?
Megan was. It's in the court papers.
Once you introduce a narco component into the picture (on top of sex work), the risk factor exponentially increases for these women as you're not only dealing w johns and predators but also rival traffickers, suppliers, gang activity and narcotics enforcement entities on both the legal and illegal side of the spectrum. Just thoughts.

 

[Bose]

I just finished the majority of unredacted info from the original Akeem Cruz and Robert Blake cases available thru Pacer.
I know this is the GB4 thread but I'm posting here bc I think this can be traced to other victims - not just Megan.
Megan started out w Blake. Blake passed her on to Cruz. Cruz, Blake and the rest of their "group" - quotes around group bc this was not just a bunch of friends...they were an organized system. I'm not calling out any affiliations bc I can't verify 100% whether red, blue, LK etc.

But in Megan's case, she was making mtiple trips back and forth btwn NY and Maine via Concordia bus. Why the bus? They had vehicles. They could've driven and easily cut down on travel time.
A Concordia bus isn't going to get pulled over. The passengers on a bus are not going to run the risk of being searched or having their id's checked.
In the Akeem Cruz court stuff it is uncontested that Cruz was prostituting Megan in both NY and Maine, but more importantly, he was using her to transport drugs back and forth. She was carrying bags inside of her. Cavity transporting. Akeem Cruz learned everything from his uncle Robert Blake.
So if Akeem was having his girls do this, so was Blake.
And this goes to a bigger picture.
Is it possible that other handlers like Khalil White or John Terry were following the same pattern? Could they have known eachother - either directly or through mutual suppliers.
Media concentrates on the "sex worker" aspect because sex sells. But is it possible these victims were also being used to move narcotics?
Megan was. It's in the court papers.
Once you introduce a narco component into the picture (on top of sex work), the risk factor exponentially increases for these women as you're not only dealing w johns and predators but also rival traffickers, suppliers, gang activity and narcotics enforcement entities on both the legal and illegal side of the spectrum. Just thoughts.

Your post makes a lot of sense to me, @Girlinterrupted.

It may take a leap for some of us, to explore the narcotics/trafficking angle, but I don't think it should be ignored, at all.

I go back to watching the news, when Melissa was found, and then the other victims. At the time, in the very beginning, the way things were presented to the public was that we had a killer on the loose, and a possible serial killer.

Is it possible things were overlooked back then, that could have been signs these were retaliatory killings and trafficking/drug related, possibly committed by the same person--or--with possible clues left due to the condition of the bodies, that would point to a particular faction committing these murders.

In other words, I remember growing up and hearing on the news about "suspected mob hit" fairly frequently in the news. It didn't seem to take long for people to figure out it was likely a mob hit, due to the person who was killed, and the way they were killed, or found.

Could these killings be a similar thing? What if some of the murders, or all, were to "send a message," whether to the pimps, or other associates, that the victims were killed because they were a liability, etc.?

Back in the day, I remember John Miller doing in-depth investigative reporting, some centered on the mafia. How many journalists, or other people out there, have been investigating organized groups involved in trafficking, these days. Does anyone know of any resources available for reading up on groups engaged in prostitution/drug trafficking/sex trafficking? Are there other murders out there, where the bodies may have shown evidence that crimes were committed by a particular group? Just wondering!

 

[Girlinterrupted]

I can link you to about two dozen major federal cases between 2004 all the way to last year where narcotics/sex trafficking, racketeering, money laundering conspiracy cases came down on 2 specific crime families plus Bloods, Latin Kings and one particular 1%er motorcycle club in the tri-state area alone.
Or the NJ/NY lawyer whose firm in the early aughts was representing major gang & LCN clients and, not randomly, also one of the biggest NYC escort services (possibly to date...think the Spitzer snafu) that also provided coke to major clients (Ruis was nothing compared to this guy) out of his own office, who is now in prison (for life I believe) for arranging to have multiple witnesses murdered - literally he did this as a lawyer himself - for different clients he was representing.
Cartels, gangs and LCN usually dispose of bodies the way we see alot of the bodies in this case. Dismemberment is not just for serial killers. Think DeMeo/Guglielmo (the latter of which should ring a bell @Bose ... think The Film Center Building in Manhattan)
In that same vein of thought, the Fountain Avenue Garbage Dump was notorious for certain groups dumping bodies - it straddled the Brooklyn/Queens border...almost like how we see a conscious effort to dispose of victims' bodies between Nassau and Suffolk.

And now I'm just going to lay everything out as far as I can see

In my opinion, daft as it may be, Shannan was something different.
She didn't die naturally but she's in a separate category, a very difficult place.
If youre barely into your twenties, facing a major federal case as a co-defendant, not sure whether the "good" guys or the "bad" guys are more of a threat, or even who the "good" vs "bad" guys are, and both of them are breathing down your neck, you run for your life.

She did that.

Not bc she was having a psychotic break but bc she was swimming in the deep end and had no life preserver.
Shannan was collateral damage of a broken judicial system especially when it comes to CIs or Cooperating witnesses..

Manorville and Brooklyn I have some knowledge on but not enough to speak on it.
I know there are many on here that do.

The GB4? Was a very particular message to someone who would immediately understand it when it was discovered, which was not accidental imo.
There was an extra step taken w the GB4 - the thing they all had in common when they were found. Think about that one very specific thing all the talking heads reported on when the case broke and every network was showing those aerial views and Nancy Grace was oinking and squealing in feigned horror - the thing that made everyone take notice bc it was so very specific and theories were flying - nurseries, clams, coffee beans, erosion control?
If someone who felt that they or someone close to them, whether an individual or organization, was slighted by Suffolk and wanted to leave a big F you right in their backyard, that one thing that was plastered all over the media about how the GB4 were found, that very specific extra step that was taken- it echoes wayy back to something that happened decades ago in Suffolk County.

Ever since I wrote "talking heads" about all the news reporters barking about the bodies, I can't get this out of my mind...I feel like it's kind of appropriate, in a really creepy way, because in many ways, it is and always will be, same as it ever was.

And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife
And you may ask yourself, "Well, how did I get here?"

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

And you may ask yourself, "How do I work this?"
And you may ask yourself, "Where is that large automobile?"
And you may tell yourself, "This is not my beautiful house"
And you may tell yourself, "This is not my beautiful wife"

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

Water dissolving and water removing
There is water at the bottom of the ocean
Under the water, carry the water
Remove the water from the bottom of the ocean
Water dissolving and water removing

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones, there is water underground

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Leting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

You may ask yourself, "What is that beautiful house?"
You may ask yourself, "Where does that highway go to?"
And you may ask yourself, "Am I right, am I wrong?"
And you may say to yourself, "My God, what have I done?"

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones, there is water underground
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

 

[Bose]

I can link you to about two dozen major federal cases between 2004 all the way to last year where narcotics/sex trafficking, racketeering, money laundering conspiracy cases came down on 2 specific crime families plus Bloods, Latin Kings and one particular 1%er motorcycle club in the tri-state area alone.
Or the NJ/NY lawyer whose firm in the early aughts was representing major gang & LCN clients and, not randomly, also one of the biggest NYC escort services (possibly to date...think the Spitzer snafu) that also provided coke to major clients (Ruis was nothing compared to this guy) out of his own office, who is now in prison (for life I believe) for arranging to have multiple witnesses murdered - literally he did this as a lawyer himself - for different clients he was representing.
Cartels, gangs and LCN usually dispose of bodies the way we see alot of the bodies in this case. Dismemberment is not just for serial killers. Think DeMeo/Guglielmo (the latter of which should ring a bell @Bose ... think The Film Center Building in Manhattan)
In that same vein of thought, the Fountain Avenue Garbage Dump was notorious for certain groups dumping bodies - it straddled the Brooklyn/Queens border...almost like how we see a conscious effort to dispose of victims' bodies between Nassau and Suffolk.

And now I'm just going to lay everything out as far as I can see

In my opinion, daft as it may be, Shannan was something different.
She didn't die naturally but she's in a separate category, a very difficult place.
If youre barely into your twenties, facing a major federal case as a co-defendant, not sure whether the "good" guys or the "bad" guys are more of a threat, or even who the "good" vs "bad" guys are, and both of them are breathing down your neck, you run for your life.

She did that.

Not bc she was having a psychotic break but bc she was swimming in the deep end and had no life preserver.
Shannan was collateral damage of a broken judicial system especially when it comes to CIs or Cooperating witnesses..

Manorville and Brooklyn I have some knowledge on but not enough to speak on it.
I know there are many on here that do.

The GB4? Was a very particular message to someone who would immediately understand it when it was discovered, which was not accidental imo.
There was an extra step taken w the GB4 - the thing they all had in common when they were found. Think about that one very specific thing all the talking heads reported on when the case broke and every network was showing those aerial views and Nancy Grace was oinking and squealing in feigned horror - the thing that made everyone take notice bc it was so very specific and theories were flying - nurseries, clams, coffee beans, erosion control?
If someone who felt that they or someone close to them, whether an individual or organization, was slighted by Suffolk and wanted to leave a big F you right in their backyard, that one thing that was plastered all over the media about how the GB4 were found, that very specific extra step that was taken- it echoes wayy back to something that happened decades ago in Suffolk County.

Ever since I wrote "talking heads" about all the news reporters barking about the bodies, I can't get this out of my mind...I feel like it's kind of appropriate, in a really creepy way, because in many ways, it is and always will be, same as it ever was.

And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife
And you may ask yourself, "Well, how did I get here?"

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

And you may ask yourself, "How do I work this?"
And you may ask yourself, "Where is that large automobile?"
And you may tell yourself, "This is not my beautiful house"
And you may tell yourself, "This is not my beautiful wife"

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

Water dissolving and water removing
There is water at the bottom of the ocean
Under the water, carry the water
Remove the water from the bottom of the ocean
Water dissolving and water removing

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones, there is water underground

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Leting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground

You may ask yourself, "What is that beautiful house?"
You may ask yourself, "Where does that highway go to?"
And you may ask yourself, "Am I right, am I wrong?"
And you may say to yourself, "My God, what have I done?"

Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, into the silent water
Under the rocks and stones, there is water underground
Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by, water flowing underground
Into the blue again, after the money's gone
Once in a lifetime, water flowing underground
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was

Wow, such a lot here, great stuff!!

I'm going to read up on some of the things you mentioned, here. The garbage dump you mentioned, if it was still open in the 1980s I definitely remember it. My parents used to roll up the windows in the car when we drove past it on the highway.

Off to do some reading, great post @Girlinterrupted! Song does make sense, too... *sigh