Golf club or flashlight or....?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by OpenMind4U, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    On FFJ, you'll find the thread under the same name. Very interesting discussions are going on there...Unfortunately, I'm not FFJ member and cannot join these discussions. So, I decided to bring the same discussion to WS with the hope that FFJ members could 'peer review' this post.

    As many of you, for a years I was wondering what could cause such an enormous injury to JBR head: flashlight, golf club, baseball bat, door knob or something else? In recent weeks, a lot of JBR head injury and it's location were discussed and analyzed by cynic and otg. They've done an amazing job with their analysis! We learned a lot from them...and thanks to their effort, it make me start thinking 'outside of the box' for other possibilities.

    Everything started from otg post #17 on FFJ...

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10160&page=2

    'Getting kicked in the head' got my attention...and I start analysis by looking what kind of injury it could produce.

    http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/pathology/head-injury/circumstances-of-head-injury/

    Here are few NOTES from Henn and Lignitz review of the pathological findings in homicidal kicking and 'trampling'. To get the full review, you must download the whole file in HTML or PDF format (simply Google 'Henn and Lignitz'):

    ...and it made me think: what about Burke's Hi-Tec boots? What if BR was never changed after FW party? We know BR had Hi-Tec boots. I couldn't find the exect 1996 model but here is the latest kids model. Look at the heavy robber shape front of these boots (don't know how to attach the picture so please use the link to see different styles).

    http://www.rei.com/product/707658/h...ferralID=0fded4c2-f2cc-11e1-b779-001b2166c62d

    Plus something else...Did you see these metal hooks for shoe laces? Some models have pretty heavy hooks, especially on the top of the Hi-Tec boots. But I'm not going there yet...I want to stop right here and hear your comments first.

    ...be gentle please, don't kick me hard:)....
     
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  3. UKGuy

    UKGuy Active Member

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    OpenMind4U,
    cynic and otg did a pretty good job describing the mechanics of JonBenet's head injury, so I've no problem in accepting a golf-club as the candidate weapeon, although it could be a baseball bat, or a heavy glass ashtray?

    What I find more interesting, and what no RDI theory explains is why do we have a sexual assault followed by an apparent head injury then an asphyxiation?

    The only thing that I can think to explain the evidence is that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser, who whacked her on the back of the head?


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  4. Bonnette

    Bonnette New Member

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    That's long been my take on it. Resistance>rage>bash (with golf putter, IMO).
     
  5. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    UKGuy,

    If I understand correctly, cynic and otg made an outstanding job in describing the anatomy of the head injury (location/position) and it's shape (oval shape of depressed fracture)...not the mechanics of it. The 'mechanics' aspect of such a 'blunt trauma' (some forensic experts believe that 'depressed fracture' could be caused by the 'shift' mechanics) is the topic of this discussion. Means, which 'tool' (force, direction) could produce such an injury?...JMO

    In regards of RDI theory, the sequencing of the events (acute injury, head blow and strangulation') is not 100% bullet-proofed:). It depends on individual believes in their own RDI scenario.

    In regards of the evidence that JonBenet was moving away from her abuser - sorry, I don't see such an evidence. It's possibility, yes. But not the evidence. JMO
     
  6. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    Great post! The round mark on JonBenet's face with what some think might have been an impression of Patsy's ring very well could be the imprint of a boot lace-hook. :goodpost:
     
  7. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    You GOT IT!!!!!! Thank you!
     
  8. UKGuy

    UKGuy Active Member

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    OpenMind4U,
    Thats what we are dealing in, possibilities.

    I know the sequencing is not fixed, Ive suggested the head injury is a first attempt at staging?

    I understand someone could have lost it, become angry etc, but if you are going to whack someone on impulse, then it takes time to pick a golf-club, take aim and whack.

    Something does not add up here.


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  9. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    No problem, I do respect your opinion. And thank you for reading this thread.
     
  10. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    That's why I've never thought the blow to the head was in response to a scream. It takes too much time compared to putting a hand over the mouth.
     
  11. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    As I recall from the cynic/otg thread the positioning would be correct, but why would a whack with a golf club be a response to her moving away? No matter which R you think was the abuser, that R was capable of grabbing her.
     
  12. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    ....as the 'refresher' on the subject of Burke's Hi-Tec boots.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-prints-hand-foot.htm

    At the same time, in August 2000, Ramsey tried very hard to find and provide to LE someone else Hi-Tec boots...pointing 'finger' away from BR.

    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/31aside.html

     
  13. txsvicki

    txsvicki New Member

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    I still don't understand how jonbenet wasn't injured with bruising or abrasions on her body when hit in the head unless she was laying on a pillow, reclining on a chair, or someone had hold of her if she was standing. Even if she were crouched down it seems like she would have been knocked over and at least bruised.
     
  14. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    Because she was face down in her bed?

    I'm not advancing this as a theory, just "free associating" so to speak, based on your question. There is blood on her pillow case, if I recall correctly. I think there was some bleeding from the nose. Couldn't begin to explain a golf club in the bedroom.
     
  15. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    I don't think the head of a golf club (I'm not a golfer so head may not be the correct word but I mean the business end of the club), no matter which angle might have made contact with the head, would have carried enough pressure to split her skull eight inches. That much pressure would have embedded the golf club in her brain.

    I know I am the only monkey in the tree who believes her head struck something rather than something striking her head but OpenMind4U's idea of kicking or stomping with a heavy boot might fit the bill ... I need to think about that for a while.
     
  16. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    Especially for such a small person. I often wonder if the scream was Patsy's. It's not always easy to distinguish between a child and and adult scream.
     
  17. txsvicki

    txsvicki New Member

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    It has probably been discussed but the bedpost at the end of jonbenet's beds look like something a head could slam into. The other side of suffering sample page on amazon talks of pam going back there entering the solid oak door then upstairs and runs her hand across the bedpost. It creeped me out to read besides all the bragging
    .
     
  18. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    The neighbor who heard the scream was asked about that very thing- if she was sure it was a child. She replied (a bit indignantly) that she "knew what a child's scream sounded like" and wouldn't have mistaken it for a woman's.
    But many people here do wonder if the scream could have been Patsy, discovering what had happened to her daughter.
    The time that the scream was said to be heard (around midnight) does correspond to JB's approximate time of death, and so it could work for either scenario. If it was JB's scream in response to whatever penetrated her vagina with enough force to cause her to bleed (followed by the head bash to shut her up), the approximate TOD of midnight to 1 am is in agreement with a midnight scream. By the same token, if Patsy, up and about getting ready for the trip by her own admission, having come upon JB in an unconscious state, may have screamed herself. Either way, I believe a scream WAS heard and it happened right around the time she died.
     
  19. Flatlander

    Flatlander New Member

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    [
    I found this site most interesting on the subject:
    http://www.acandyrose.com/s-michael-helgoth.htm

    What they didn't know was that lab technicians had found not just one but three different unidentified shoe prints in that little room-the main print and two less pronounced impressions that overlapped each other. We considered that a positive development, for how likely would it be that three intruders carried the body into the room? And the possibilities were great that the print was totally unrelated to the murder. Just because something is found at the site of a murder doesn't mean it is part of the crime.

    Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000
    0122

    14 Q. Do you recall a period of time,

    15 prior to 1996, when your son Burke purchased

    16 a pair of hiking boots that had compasses on

    17 the shoelaces? And if it helps to

    18 remember --

    19 A. I can't remember.

    20 Q. Maybe this will help your

    21 recollection. They were shoes that were

    22 purchased while he was shopping with you in

    23 Atlanta.

    24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

    25 as a fact?

    0123

    1 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as

    2 a fact.

    3 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Does that help

    4 refresh your recollection as to whether he

    5 owned a pair of shoes that had compasses on

    6 them?

    7 A. I just can't remember. Bought so

    8 many shoes for him.
    9 Q. And again, I will provide, I'll

    10 say, I'll say this as a fact to you, that,

    11 and maybe this will help refresh your

    12 recollection, he thought that -- the shoes

    13 were special because they had a compass on

    14 them, his only exposure for the most part to

    15 compasses had been in the plane and he kind

    16 of liked the idea of being able to point

    17 them different directions. Do you remember

    18 him doing that with the shoes?

    19 A. I can't remember the shoes. I

    20 remember he had a compass thing like a

    21 watch, but I can't remember about the shoes.

    22 Q. You don't remember him having

    23 shoes that you purchased with compasses on

    24 them?

    25 MR. WOOD: She will tell you that

    0124

    1 one more time. Go ahead and tell him, and

    2 this will be the third time.

    3 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.

    4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. Does it

    5 jog your memory to know that the shoes with

    6 compasses were made by Hi-Tec?

    7 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

    8 as a fact?

    9 MR. LEVIN: Yes. I am stating

    10 that as a fact.

    11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know

    12 that.

    13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I will state this

    14 as a fact. There are two people who have

    15 provided us with information, including your

    16 son, that he owned Hi-Tec shoes prior to the

    17 murder of your daughter.

    18 MR. WOOD: You are stating that

    19 Burke Ramsey has told you he owned Hi-Tec

    20 shoes?

    21 MR. LEVIN: Yes.

    22 MR. WOOD: He used the phrase

    23 Hi-Tec?

    24 MR. LEVIN: Yes.

    25 MR. WOOD: When?

    0125

    1 MR. LEVIN: I can't, I can't give

    2 you the source. I can tell you that I have

    3 that information.

    4 MR. WOOD: You said Burke told

    5 you.

    6 MR. LEVIN: I can't quote it to

    7 you for reasons I am sure, as an attorney,

    8 you are aware.

    9 MR. WOOD: Just so it is clear,

    2. 10 there is a difference between you saying that

    11 somebody said Burke told them and Burke

    12 telling you because Burke has been

    13 interviewed by you all December of 1996,

    14 January of 1997, June of 1998.

    15 Are you saying that it is within

    16 those interviews?

    17 MR. LEVIN: No.

    18 MR. WOOD: So he didn't tell you,

    19 he told somebody else you are stating as a

    20 fact because I don't think you all have

    21 talked to him other than those occasions,

    22 have you?

    23 MR. KANE: Mr. Wood, we don't

    24 want to get into grand jury information.

    25 Okay?

    0126

    1 MR. WOOD: Okay.

    2 MR. KANE: Fair enough?

    3 MR. LEVIN: I am sorry, I should

    4 have been more direct. I thought you would

    5 understand --
    6 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Fleet Junior also

    2. 7 says that he had Hi-Tec shoes.

    8 A. Okay. Now --

    9 Q. Does that jog your memory?

    10 A. Is, are you talking like Hi-Tec

    11 like --

    12 Q. The brand name.

    13 A. These are really high tech or the

    14 brand name? Did the children understand the

    15 difference, or are they --

    16 Q. I was talking brand name.

    17 A. They knew like a brand name like

    18 Nike, whatever?

    19 Q. Yes, yes, ma'am.

    20 A. Okay.

    21 Q. That doesn't jog your recollection

    22 at all?

    23 A. No.

    21 Q. Okay. Is this the first time

    22 that you've heard that Burke says that he

    23 had Hi-Tec?

    24 A. Yes, it is.

    25 Q. This is the very first time?

    0132

    1 A. Yes.


    QUOTE=txsvicki;8317049]I still don't understand how jonbenet wasn't injured with bruising or abrasions on her body when hit in the head unless she was laying on a pillow, reclining on a chair, or someone had hold of her if she was standing. Even if she were crouched down it seems like she would have been knocked over and at least bruised.[/QUOTE]

    Does it sound reasonable that perhaps BR was standing on a chair waiting for JB to walk thru a door and hit her from above? Just a question.
    As I have read here and on FFJ it is of the opinion that the marks on her back where made from the train track. As for the bruising or abrasions found on her body; these could have been made after she as hit on the head. She was after all still alive at that point in time. JMO
     
  20. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    I'm another monkey in the tree that thinks, at least possibly, she fell on something. BR is the only one I see hitting her with a golf club, and I don't see the case as BDI. I can't see any reason for JR or PR to use a golf club on her (or a maglite). I especially don't see her being bashed in the head because she screamed or because she was getting away from the perp.

    Unfortunately it's another of the many aspects of the case we will likely never know.
     
  21. UKGuy

    UKGuy Active Member

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    Chrishope,
    Because I see the golf-club as an, at a distance, type of weapon, say distinct from a knife or hammer.

    Its just speculation attempting to marry a golf-club up with a head injury.


    Where I live there was a case involving two adults, drinking was involved, one spat on the others step-brother and threatened him with a broken bottle, which he later followed up with a threat by phone, to shoot the relatives brother, done during a bout of drinking at a drinking den.

    So the relative turned up at the drinking den armed with a golf-club, with which he proceeded to hit the other guy about the head, once knocked unconcious, he was dragged out into the street, to stop him bleeding on the carpet, where he continued his attack by stamping on his head.

    A witness heard shouting from the back of the flat and saw the victim He was still lying out cold on the concrete path and the accused was stamping on the victim's head, said the prosecutor.

    The victim was left permanently scarred, brain damaged, and facing difficulties for the rest of his life.

    The prosecutor said the victim needed a life-saving operation to relieve pressure of bleeding on his brain.

    He also suffered fractures to both upper and lower jaw and part of his right ear was torn off.

    Reading about this I thought about JonBenet. Similar head injury, person left alive, requiring an operation to remove blood on the brain, etc, e.g. maybe JonBenet could have been saved?

    But the stamping on the head resulted in some serious injuries to the jaw and ear. Do we have this with JonBenet?

    I've always thought JonBenet's injuries were consistent with some kind of rage attack.

    So use of the golf-club followed up with some head/body stamping seems to fit the bill.




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