Grand Jury True Bills John & Patsy Discussion thread

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by otg, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. lawstudent

    lawstudent Member

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    Can someone explain why this is so illuminating? The grand jury's versions of events are not necessarily the true ones - it's fairly easy to get indicted. Not saying that I don't believe the Ramseys are involved, but the jury's opinion of how it happened doesn't seem particularly dispositive to me.

    And as for putting her in the zone of danger, that would definitely not be an abusive older brother, broken window, or pageants. That means that either John/Patsy either did something that had a great risk of injury or knew she was injured and didn't seek medical help. It has to be a very direct relationship between their actions and the harm - not just failing to make good parenting decisions, which would be more neglect. The first degree murder thing is interesting.
     


  2. tezi

    tezi Member of Websleuths since 2000.

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    Apparently, my friend, we both are. This is a huge step in righting some wrongs. JonBenet may never receive justice.

    We knew about the felony child abuse resulting in death. We did NOT know about the Accessory charge. To me, that is huge.
     
  3. SeaEclipse

    SeaEclipse Active Member

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    This is essentially what I was coming here to say (what the article said). If you look at the indictment, the two charges (4(a) and 7) are numbered such that they (1) clearly weren't the only charges presented and (2) almost certainly weren't part of a cohesive theory. What they demonstrate is far more likely to be a compromise on the part of the GJ than a coherent theory that BR did it and they covered it up. In fact, I think it's more likely that the GJ thought one parent did it and both covered it up, and they just didn't have probable cause that either parent did it. This is why Hunter declined to prosecute -- the GJ didn't endorse any of the theories that prosecutors had.

    I also think people are forgetting that the DNA evidence didn't match BR, so the theory most people are presenting here doesn't fly.
     
  4. AliVada

    AliVada Member

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    This has been a long time coming, but many of us have long suspected that the murderer was in fact a Ramsey. Anyone have a link to the enhanced 911 where Burke is heard in background asking "what did you find" ... if he was killer, what was that question about? The staging and the ransom note? What is he were the killer would he have been unaware of at the point of that call to 911?

    My gut has always been Jon was abusing her, Patsy flipped and the rest is history.

    I surely wish Burke would speak and speak truth... I wonder if that day will ever come?

    It took 22 years to figure out who baby "Hope" was .... maybe time will bring the whole truth to light in this case as well.

    Kathy
     
  5. Pocono Sleuther

    Pocono Sleuther Well-Known Member

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    I'm blown away too. I've always thought if BDI, it was an accident. This is huge.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. eileenhawkeye

    eileenhawkeye Active Member

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    Really? I feel like it's getting a lot of coverage. We can't expect wall-to-wall coverage. According to this website interceder.net, it's been picked up by 698 media outlets so far. From what I've seen, no matter what media outlet you get your news from (well national ones), you will probably hear about this.

    Look at this way...If a child went missing today, and his/her disappearance was getting the same amount of coverage this news was getting, we would all be ecstatic.
     
  7. Puzzler

    Puzzler New Member

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    Thanks for this post. Your theory makes the most sense to me so far on a human-behavior level.

    I'm curious, do you have an idea on how exactly the head injury was inflicted?
     
  8. ShadyLady

    ShadyLady Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, it is all speculation at this point. But, I am looking at the evidence, and coming to the conclusion that it was only one person that sexualized JBR, and that was Patsy. I just don't think it was BR playing doctor. Too much history of Patsy's focus and actions with JBR. And the housekeeper's opinion.

    IF it were BR, when the parents found the body....I think they would have immediately taken off the garrote....with no conscious thought. I think PR wrote note to explain missing child and give her time to dispose of body. Did John figure it out and support her in the end....maybe.
     
  9. Geneva

    Geneva Be patient with me.

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    [​IMG]



    From Burke Ramsey's FB page.

    Wonder who is smiling today.
     
  10. eileenhawkeye

    eileenhawkeye Active Member

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    Yeah, we actually have some debate over whether or not that is really Burke's FB. There is another one, that was confirmed to be him. The picture you just posted is from December 2006, and is available to the public. So Burke #2 made his profile picture one from '06? It's odd.

    But...OMG...what if that Burke Ramsey is fake, and media outlets contact him on FB asking for a statement, and he gives one?!
     
  11. shefner

    shefner Member Since 2008

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    Something is really wrong with BR though. He is....messed up in some way. I think his mom worshipped his sister. His dad was distant. BR probably had internal anger issues about this but subverted it.
    OK....I'm done pretending to be a child psychologist now.
     
  12. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Heavens, it's been a long while and did not expect anything new to come up. I just wanted to say that being first degree murder charges filed would mean that the child died, the parents knew who did it and when they did not report it to authorities, it became first degree murder.
     
  13. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady New Member

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    If I recall correctly the underwear was new and unwashed and the dna could have been touch dna from packaging and handling.
    So I don't think that rules out BR alltogether.
    His parents made sure that she was redressed and cleaned.
     
  14. shefner

    shefner Member Since 2008

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    I know this question wasn't addressed to me....but how about slamming a child into the bathtub so that she damaged her head.
    Maybe PR was angry....flung JBR into the tub and started scrubbing....then realized what had really happened, that JBR was injured.
    I am totally mixed up about who did this but it was either PR or BR. And JR is just as guilty, imo.
     
  15. Geneva

    Geneva Be patient with me.

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    ITA I have always thought that the poor children were seriously messed up in the head from Patsy.
     
  16. Magdalyn

    Magdalyn New Member

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    It's my understanding that in many states, you can charge with 1st degree murder if another felony is being perpetrated at the time of death. IMO, the GJ was going for 1st degree because evidence shows she was freshly abused (sexually and physically) at time of death.

    http://www.lawinfoboulder.com/colorado_statutes/murder_first_degree.html

    1.A person commits the crime of murder in the first degree if:
    (a) After deliberation and with the intent to cause the death of a person other than himself, he causes the death of that person or of another person; or
    (b) Acting either alone or with one or more persons, he or she commits or attempts to commit arson, robbery, burglary, kidnapping, sexual assault as prohibited by section 18-3-402, sexual assault in the first or second degree as prohibited by section 18-3-402 or 18-3-403 as those sections existed prior to July 1, 2000, or a class 3 felony for sexual assault on a child as provided in section 18-3-405 (2), or the crime of escape as provided in section 18-8-208, and, in the course of or in furtherance of the crime that he or she is committing or attempting to commit, or of immediate flight therefrom, the death of a person, other than one of the participants, is caused by anyone; or

    ETA: Case in point: Local to me, we had three idiots carjack a fourth person recently. While busy pistol whipping the victim in the backseat, said pistol discharged, accidentally killing the driving carjacker. The two other carjacker idiots are in being charged with 1st degree felony murder of their 'friend'. They didn't intend or premeditate HIS death, it was accidental. But his death happened while they were committing a kidnapping and a carjacking and assault, so.... 1st degree for you! Thankfully, the victim of the carjacking survived.
     
  17. Chris_Texas

    Chris_Texas New Member

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    With all respect, in my opinion it is premature at this point to CONCLUDE that Burke did anything. One might have some questions, or wonder, but that's all that is reasonable at this point.

    The facts are these: There is NO physical evidence tying Burke to any crime at all. This cannot be said for mom and dad. Further, there is circumstantial evidence to suggest that Burke did not do it -- specifically, the parents sending him out of the house, and out of there control, that morning. Unless they were convinced that Burke was anb emotionless monster and psychopath, they would never confidently unleash a nine-year-old and trust that he wouldn't confess and bury them all. No parent would easily believe that about their own son, and if they DID believe that they couldn't trust him not to blurt the truth (or some malicious fiction) just to watch the world burn.

    And that, my friends, is the glaring chasm in the BDI theory.

    When they turned him loose that morning, they did so knowing that he had no actual facts to disclose. More, they likely expected to be arrested, and they wanted him out of the home when that happened.

    This release tells us nothing, other than that the Grand Jury did not have a clear picture of which one of the two parents actually murdered the girl.

    IN MY OPINION.
     
  18. chlban

    chlban Well-Known Member

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    TroyinTX;9926559
    I
    .

    Really? It seems pretty obvious to me. He did it. Why would he want to talk about it?

    I certainly agree. Because of his age at the tme he can never legally be held responsible. However, it seems similar to OJ getting away with murder. He may not have been in jail for the murders but he certainly paid a price. I think it's very likely that Burke will as well now that this information has come out

    That is, of course, assuming the news media stops spinning that crap about the DNA exonerating all the Ramsey's. One stupid woman decided that the DNA exonerated them. There are hundreds of far smarter people than she, that write that stupid touch DNA as exaclty what it is. Nothing.

    Sadly it seems that so far we are only hearing from the Lemmings.
     
  19. shefner

    shefner Member Since 2008

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    There is no way that BR didn't know what happened to JBR. He knew and I think everything had been severely rehearsed. The fact he kept the secret so well makes me think he may have indeed committed this murder....because his secrecy was truly self-serving.
     
  20. BD1

    BD1 Member

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    Not very specifically- I do not remember the autopsy report as clearly as some here do, but in re reading that could probably narrow it down to what type of blow causes the fracture she had. As I recall, it was considered more likely to be an actual direct strike to the head with an object as opposed to say, a fall into a wall, floor or something else. I do believe the head injury happened before the 'strangulation'. I believe the head injury occurenceand her appearing dead or close to death started the whole ball rolling.
     

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