Grand Jury True Bills John & Patsy Discussion thread

[ILikeToBendPages]

Wow wow and wow, Hmm as I understand this if John knew Pasty was abusing JonBenet, that was the putting her in danger, and that led to an the head bash, which lead to her actual murder? and then assisted in the staging of the crime scene, and not telling LE is the same if Pasty had something on John.

If they knew Burke did at least the head bash, one of them killed her. A book open and the page bent and pointing to the word incest, another about a troubled child, Pasty's frantic calls Dr, Beauf on the seventeenth, would be knowing he was abusing JonBenet and doing nothing about it, with Burke doing the head bash, and John or Pasty killed her.

Burke would miss an indictment by thirty three days.

They both are guilty equally either way.

Pasty's hand clenched tight on JonBenet's arm Christmas morning. The same place JonBenet always had bruises.

 

[Chelly]

So do you guys think we will hear from John Ramsey? Not just a statement, but an actual TV interview? And do you think it will happen very soon (sometime next week) or could you see in in two months or so, near the anniversary, perhaps, oh here's John Ramsey to talk about how a crazy, misinformed GJ almost sent him and his innocent wife to jail?

Lin Wood spoke on news outlets on Ramsey's behalf tonight. I personally don't think JR will speak except through Wood. Now, if things begin to unravel as a result of the indictment release, that's another story.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Whatever happened to BlueCrab??!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[tezi]

Whatever happened to BlueCrab??!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

Don't know...He had an interesting theory....

 

[vlpate]

Listen folks....for those saying they can understand the Ramsey's staging this crime to protect BR, are you for real? One of your children kills another of your children and you don't freak out and immediately call 911?!
That is absolutely-freaking crazy! I will never understand something like that. I have 4 children and if one murdered another, I would be the first in line to say, "Sorry, son, but we have to get you some help by calling the police and reporting this. You will be punished for this....but we will try to support you to get the medical and psychological help you need."
To think the parents would write ransom notes (chapters) and tie a garrote around their little girl's neck just to protect their son? No way. If they did something like that, they are insane. Maybe that's the problem.

You are thankfully not like Frances Newton, Susan Smith, Darlie Routier, Lianne Smith, Diane Downs, Debra Jean Milke, Kenisha Berry, and the mother (San Antonio) who recently pulled her son's genitals in anger and then tried to cover up the damage with super glue.

All mothers are not alike, unfortunately some care more about themselves, their significant other, and appearances than what is right.

 

[tezi]

Lin Wood spoke on news outlets on Ramsey's behalf tonight. I personally don't think JR will speak except through Wood. Now, if things begin to unravel as a result of the indictment release, that's another story.

Chelly, I believe you are right, he's not going to make an appearance unless things really go south (so to speak) for him.

He's got LeRoy Lincoln Wood to do his talking...

JMO

 

[Rougelatete]

Listen folks....for those saying they can understand the Ramsey's staging this crime to protect BR, are you for real? One of your children kills another of your children and you don't freak out and immediately call 911?!
That is absolutely-freaking crazy! I will never understand something like that. I have 4 children and if one murdered another, I would be the first in line to say, "Sorry, son, but we have to get you some help by calling the police and reporting this. You will be punished for this....but we will try to support you to get the medical and psychological help you need."
To think the parents would write ransom notes (chapters) and tie a garrote around their little girl's neck just to protect their son? No way. If they did something like that, they are insane. Maybe that's the problem.

For me, the issue is not whether or not to have compassion for the Ramsey's if they found out their son had just killed their daughter. The issue is whether or not they FOR YEARS ignored the warning signs that their son was capable of abusing and/or killing his sister. And FOR YEARS teaching their son what abuse looks like through their own sick actions. JMO.

I could have compassion for a parent trying to protect their last remaining child even if that child had done something horrible. But if that 'something horrible' was a result of the parents' own deviant behavior and years of neglect in terms of seeking professional help.....nope, not a drop of sympathy from me. They had ample opportunity, money, and resources to get help for their child/ren and they chose not to. THAT is the ultimate crime IMO.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

The picture of the skull sure looks like the damage could have been caused by a golf club or baseball bat, IMO. I have a hard time thinking a flashlight of any kind could cause that hole and long crack...especially if a 9 year old was doing the swinging. moo

A golf club with a blond hair attached was found outside of the Ramsey's house.

 

[Tril]

Right - I'm saying a lot of people here seem to think this confirms that Burke did it - but what evidence would make the jury think it was likely that Burke was responsible for a first degree murder? The Ramseys were not charged with murder though, right? That's what the NYT says - some people were saying it could be the missing charges, but the NYT says they were never brought. So presumably neither of the parents was thought to be the murderer - who would they be an accessory to? Or did the jury find there was only enough evidence for an accessory charge, but not a murder charge, because they couldn't figure out who the murderer was? That would explain why the DA didn't proceed.

Your questions are very similar to mine. I don’t know what evidence the grand jury may have heard that would have implicated Burke, but if it’s true that neither parent was indicted for murder, maybe Burke was implicated during grand jury testimony.

I remember reading that Fleet White had found Burke’s behavior odd when they woke him that morning. According to Fleet, Burke didn’t ask why he was going to be taken to the Whites’ instead of to board the plane for the planned family trip, and Burke didn’t ask why there were police everywhere in the house.

After the funeral, at the Westmorlands', Fleet and John had an altercation in which Fleet angrily confronted John about the Ramseys not cooperating in the investigation. I’ve often wondered if Burke inadvertently had said something to implicate himself in JonBenet’s death when he was at the Whites’ house.

On the other hand, it’s possible that the grand jury was convinced that one of the parents did it but didn’t know which one – John or Patsy.

I hope we find out more soon.

 

[tezi]

A golf club with a blond hair attached was found outside of the Ramsey's house.

Do you have a link for that, please?

I remember a baseball bat, but nary a golf club...

 

[seattlechiquita]

Well, that was anticlimatic.

 

[Rougelatete]

To clear up the first degree murder language confusion, it does not have to be premeditated, according to Colorado law. Here is an excerpt from the legal description according to that state (BBM):

A person commits the crime of murder in the first degree if:
(a) After deliberation and with the intent to cause the death of a person other than himself, he causes the death of that person or of another person; or
(b) Acting either alone or with one or more persons, he or she commits or attempts to commit arson, robbery, burglary, kidnapping, sexual assault as prohibited by section 18-3-402, sexual assault in the first or second degree as prohibited by section 18-3-402 or 18-3-403 as those sections existed prior to July 1, 2000, or a class 3 felony for sexual assault on a child as provided in section 18-3-405 (2), or the crime of escape as provided in section 18-8-208, and, in the course of or in furtherance of the crime that he or she is committing or attempting to commit, or of immediate flight therefrom, the death of a person, other than one of the participants, is caused by anyone; or
(c) By perjury or subornation of perjury he procures the conviction and execution of any innocent person; or
(d) Under circumstances evidencing an attitude of universal malice manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life generally, he knowingly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to a person, or persons, other than himself, and thereby causes the death of another; or
(e) He or she commits unlawful distribution, dispensation, or sale of a controlled substance to a person under the age of eighteen years on school grounds as provided in section 18-18-407 (2), and the death of such person is caused by the use of such controlled substance; or
(f) The person knowingly causes the death of a child who has not yet attained twelve years of age and the person committing the offense is one in a position of trust with respect to the victim.

I think any number of potential Ramsey 'offenses' could fall under these pretenses -- if the parents were responsible for her murder, they are in a position of trust and that falls under 1st degree. If BR or one of the parents was sexually assaulting JBR and that resulted in her death (through asphyxiation, a bang on the head, etc), that falls under 1st degree, if BR or the parents acted with malice and extreme disregard for the value of human life, that adds up to 1st degree. At least, those are my interpretations of the Colorado statutes. It didn't have to be premeditated. The "first degree murder" language blew my mind at first -- how was this pre-planned?! But, now I see that the 1st degree charges are much more varied in Colorado. I just wonder which one/s applied in this case.

http://www.lawinfoboulder.com/colorado_statutes/murder_first_degree.html

 

[Tadpole12]

https://bouldercolorado.gov/pages/o...-statement-about-release-of-ramsey-true-bills

Oct. 25, 2013 - Boulder Police Department Statement About Release of Ramsey True Bills

Friday, Oct. 25, 2013
Contact: Kim Kobel, Boulder Police, 303-441-3370

Boulder Police Department statement about release of Ramsey true bills

Today, Judge Robert Lowenbach released true bills that had been issued by the JonBenet Ramsey grand jury back in 1999. The decision by Judge Lowenbach to publicly disclose the existence of these true bills provides confirmation to the public that the investigation pursued by the Boulder Police Department was, in fact, based on the information and evidence available. The grand jury of 12 objective jurors ultimately agreed with investigators that probable cause existed for the filing of charges. “Until this release, it was difficult to remain silent in reference to our knowledge of the true bills for so many years,” stated Police Chief Mark Beckner.

Investigators at the time were disappointed in the then district attorney’s decision not to issue indictments. Cases are rarely perfect and often contain conflicting evidence. As a result, the opportunity to present the entire case to a jury may be lost forever. We also understand the criteria for taking a case to trial is higher than probable cause.

What we have learned from this experience is how important the relationships are between police departments which investigate cases and the district attorneys who ultimately prosecute cases. These roles should always remain clear. At the same time, both agencies must work collaboratively together as a team. Under District Attorney Stan Garnett, we’ve been able to develop a team approach – with both agencies aiming for similar goals - to achieve unprecedented success in prosecuting cold cases, most of which had been rejected for prosecution under previous district attorneys. Justice, and the public interest, is better served with this type of collaboration and shared focus.

The status of the Ramsey investigation today is that of a cold case. The case is still open, but is not actively being investigated and there are no new leads. While we believe at this point it is unlikely there will ever be a prosecution, the Boulder Police Department still holds out some hope that one day the district attorney and the Boulder Police Department will be able to put together a case worthy of presenting to a jury.

-- CITY--​

 

[questfortrue]

Listen folks....for those saying they can understand the Ramsey's staging this crime to protect BR, are you for real? One of your children kills another of your children and you don't freak out and immediately call 911?!
That is absolutely-freaking crazy! I will never understand something like that. I have 4 children and if one murdered another, I would be the first in line to say, "Sorry, son, but we have to get you some help by calling the police and reporting this. You will be punished for this....but we will try to support you to get the medical and psychological help you need."
To think the parents would write ransom notes (chapters) and tie a garrote around their little girl's neck just to protect their son? No way. If they did something like that, they are insane. Maybe that's the problem.

The insanity is even deeper than you’ve proposed. Imagine one’s son sexually assaults and kills your daughter. Maybe you find a garotte around your baby’s neck, placed by your son. (Or maybe you come up with it to throw off investigators.)

After a consultation with your spouse, the two of you decide, OK we’re going all in on this. So, you launch into cover up mode. You immediately (the afternoon after your child’s body is discovered) have someone contact a major law firm to question a person who was close by, who was suspicious about something. (Reference to FW) You try to arrange to fly out of Colorado on urgent business in Atlanta, within 20-30 minutes of the body discovery. You hire the best PR firm, you retain lawyers for yourself (first and foremost); then contract for lawyers for everyone else, your wife, son, ex-wife, children by another marriage. You come up with anyone you can think of to steer the authorities away from your son. (Housekeepers, many friends, ex-employees of your company. If their lives are damaged, so be it.) Anyone not sympathetic or at least in any way a threat to your story you have your lawyers initiate or threaten lawsuits.

Last, but not least, you spend buckets of cash for this farce. (The huge advances on your books help defray some of the cost.) It also doesn’t matter one whit that the public taxpayers of Boulder spend $2 million attempting to investigate this charade. All that matters is rescuing your son. At night you can whisper to your spouse, “We did it. Our son’s life is safe.” . . “As for our daughter, she’s in a better place.”

Yep, sounds nuts to me. moo
____________________________________
Postscript
From ST: Miss America is the least JB could have been.
From Kolar: In the faces of our children we are granted the opportunity to glimpse the futue and the untimely death of one irrevocably changes us all.

 

[rpgman]

To clear up the first degree murder language confusion, it does not have to be premeditated, according to Colorado law. Here is an excerpt from the legal description according to that state (BBM):



I think any number of potential Ramsey 'offenses' could fall under these pretenses -- if the parents were responsible for her murder, they are in a position of trust and that falls under 1st degree. If BR or one of the parents was sexually assaulting JBR and that resulted in her death (through asphyxiation, a bang on the head, etc), that falls under 1st degree, if BR or the parents acted with malice and extreme disregard for the value of human life, that adds up to 1st degree. At least, those are my interpretations of the Colorado statutes. It didn't have to be premeditated. The "first degree murder" language blew my mind at first -- how was this pre-planned?! But, now I see that the 1st degree charges are much more varied in Colorado. I just wonder which one/s applied in this case.

http://www.lawinfoboulder.com/colorado_statutes/murder_first_degree.html

It's called Felony Murder and cynic nailed it.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=187511&postcount=30"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - Could Patsy have been tried for negligent homicide?[/ame]

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Do you have a link for that, please?

I remember a baseball bat, but nary a golf club...

Whew, I've tried to get back to you last night,but......

This is at Acandyrose

SteveThomas: "One item -- page 44, a last minute mistake -- ballbat with hair on it should read "golfclub with hair on it", found outside on west side of house. ballbat found in north yard. other corrections are minor, grammar, etc A second notation in hypothesis includes fact that Patsy had alcohol to drink at White's party that night. I also add the names of still more BPD officers, great cops, who have quietly resigned."


There were golf clubs found in a closet in the train room. I can't remember who said that Burke got a new set of golf clubs for Christmas. If so, could the golf clubs in the closet of been John's and Burke's went out the door with Pam Paugh?

 

[lawstudent]

But if Burke did it, I don't know why felony murder would be the charge they would go to. Second degree murder or manslaughter would make the most sense - felony murder is usually used where there's some way for the person to avoid taking responsibility otherwise (helping with a violent robbery where someone dies or restraining someone during a rape and accidentally suffocating them). In those cases, it would be hard to bring murder charges - maybe manslaughter for the rape one, but that would outrage people. So they created felony murder, and made it first degree since there's usually a plan to do some sort of bad action in these cases - the person doesn't just snap. I don't see them applying it to a child - I don't think it's used all that much.

I follow the Jackson family saga closely, and a lot of fans wanted Conrad Murray charged with felony murder - the articles they posted made it clear it wasn't commonly used. I would think they'd give a child a break with a lesser charge. Plus I don't think he would be considered in a position of trust.

It just seems like if the parents were involved at all in the violence, it would be normal first or second degree murder, unless it was a total accident and then it would be manslaughter, but I don't know how you accidentally crack someone's skull like that. It's not like they placed her in a position of danger like someone who robs a store knowing the clerk may get shot. If they killed her, it was far more direct than that - either premeditated or second degree. And if Burke did it, I don't see the need for felony murder either.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013...enet-ramsey-case-files-could-help-solve-case/

Why opening the JonBenet case files could help solve her murder

October 25, 2013
Jeffrey Scott Shapiro

If journalists continue to compel the courts to consider the public interest, there is a possibility a judge could order the release of more material because of the First Amendment.

The release of case files could be in JonBenet’s interest since, at this cold case stage, it may inspire a reluctant witness to come forward the way the Unabomber’s brother came forward after the FBI released his manifesto. It could also inspire other members of the public to want to help authorities solve the case.

 

[redheadedgal]

Do you have a link for that, please?

I remember a baseball bat, but nary a golf club...

online chat with ST: may, 2000

STEVE THOMAS: One item — page 44, a last minute mistake — ballbat with hair on it should read “golfclub with hair on it”, found outside on west side of house. ballbat found in north yard

http://crimejusticeandamerica.com/sthomas1


:seeya:

 

[2Hope4]

But why would BR kill her? What did he have to gain? He was a small child himself. So who tied the knots on her wrists, and the fancy tying on the paintbrush handle?

Could someone else have been in the home with the Rs knowledge? Perhaps a pagent judge, or someone they knew or should have known was molesting JBR? If so, they would need to protect themselves, because if it came out they were allowing things to happen to JBR and not doing anything about it, then yes, they would be in trouble.

I just don't understand a 9 yr old as killing her, with intent. What known problems did he have? Has he ever been in trouble before that time, or since? Someone with enough anger, rage, whatever to kill a 6yr old child, would/should have shown signs before and it would only get worse as he got older. But I don't remember anything about him as a teen or adult.