Graphic Photos/ Day 6 The Garotte, The Cord, and Paint brush/12 Days of JonBenet

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Tricia, Sep 12, 2016.

  1. SuperDave

    SuperDave Former Member

    Messages:
    13,263
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Well, I haven't gotten it confirmed 100% that those fibers were from that, but your idea makes sense. Or, how about this: maybe the wrist ties were done there first?
     


  2. sek4278

    sek4278 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I know ST thought that the first trauma to JBR was in her bedroom, but if the killing took place in the basement (evidenced by the urine) why bring her upstairs to stage? I had thought that they confirmed the fibers were from the cord but there is a lot of misinformation out there. Having just finished several of the major books (Perfect murder, foreign faction, the ST book) I'm amazed at how many perspective there are and info in one book but not the other, things not really explained by the passage of time...
     
  3. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,382
    Trophy Points:
    113
    sek4278,
    If fibers from the nylon cord were found in JonBenet's bed, then this confirms her bedroom as the primary crime-scene. The wine-cellar was a staged crime-scene.
     
  4. Heymom

    Heymom New Member

    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    No, the fibers that were found on her bed were rope, perhaps from a rope she'd used as a photo prop, and as I recall, the rope might have been under her bed in a paper bag.
     
  5. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me New Member

    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The fibers could have gotten on her bed via secondary transfer from the knife used to cut the cord.
     
  6. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me New Member

    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    IMO, it is more likely that the rope had been under John Andrew's bed. Pulling it out would account for a section of the dust ruffle sticking out.
     
  7. BOESP

    BOESP Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,752
    Likes Received:
    72
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Yep.

    Iirc, the rope also was consistent with rope found in John Andrew's room. Patsy said (via one of the many books about JonBenet) the rope was used to decorate a Christmas tree in a cowboy theme in John Andrew's bedroom.
     
  8. AB1

    AB1 Member

    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Given all the questions arising from gaps in the timeline, evasive answers, clothing, food, marks on the body... this, the strangulation, is still the "part" that confuses me the most. For me, it's the most important question because this is the business end. In legal terms this is what killed JBR. Whoever did this is the killer.
    Even if they thought JBR was dead - thus lacking mens rea for murder - the cord being tightened around the neck ended JBR's life (irrespective of whether the garotte was a "staging" or not).
    And I genuinely struggle with resolving this, mainly due to the 45mins-2hours gap between the blow to the head and the strangulation.

    If BR... if he is responsible for both... the time gap undermines the notion of an initial angry lashing out. Yes, there could be a period of panic, of indecision. But to stay with her and do what? Or go away and plan, or return later to inspect and decide to act... The combination of behaviours would indicate a much darker psyche than an angry child hitting out.

    If PR... the forensics is there, can't argue with that. The reasons for it are up for debate, but not the reality of the evidence being there. Yet tightening that cord - even using the garotte to distance herself from the act - I just struggle with it. I've tried to think through "mercy killing", and my head immediately goes to a pillow and suffocation, but could that be achieved from "behind" without having to face the child - I guess so? But strangulation was chosen. Plus, mercy killing supposes that it was known something horrific had happened to her head and brain, and that was not evident until autopsy. So if I accept PR could find "mercy killing" within herself, then it must follow that she was capable of "protect the other child" killing and ultimately "protect myself" killing. In which case, as with BR, if she did both, the time gap means we have to make the leap from angry force with unintended consequences to calculated murder.

    If JR... I may be odd, I truly hope I'm not just being sexist, but this "sits" best for me. Perhaps I'm being squeamish when addressing what the other Rs may be capable of. I believe he could have made that decision and carried it out. But the I have difficulty with JR and the torch blow. There is no known history of sudden violence. On the contrary, we see control and planning. However, if JR carried out the strangulation as a mercy killing, the provisos still apply. He had to be able to approximate what was wrong.

    If you find a child unconscious, perhaps also gasping for air, perhaps also fitting, you call an ambulance.

    So, whoever hit her also strangled her.
    Or whoever hit her did say "I hit her with the torch" so another/s could reasonably guess at brain injury despite the lack of visual damage.
    Or whoever hit her was witnessed doing so by another/s.

    Apologies for the stream of consciousness approach, but I wanted to show my "workings out" so someone can point out if/where I've missed something.
    Well, that's where I am at on the "strangulation", when considering it alone, without reference to everything else we know. But that might be my error, in that nothing should be considered in isolation. When I link it with what else is known, I get to a solution that appears to tick most boxes. But this still niggles away...

    I know some of you (e.g. otg) are very knowledgeable in respect of the medical aspects of the case so I'm going to search for your posts. Meanwhile, all wisdom in respect of the "time gap" between injuries (or my gaps in thought process) will be gratefully received!
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,382
    Trophy Points:
    113
    AB1,

    The simplest explanation is that one person did it all, and another person(s) carried out the staging.

    Lets assume Kolar's BDI: where BR sexually assaults JonBenet, whacks her on the head, then strangles her. Following this BR performs amateurish staging knowing he will have some explaining to do, e.g. dresses jonBenet in clean size-12's, and a pair of his own long johns, this latter process should effectively cover most of the 45 minutes to 2 hours time gap.

    The parents are alerted that JonBenet has been fatally injured, BR does not narrate all the prior events, just enough to make it apparent he is responsible.

    After a few failed attempts the parents decide upon the Abduction Scenario and stage JonBenet accordingly.

    JR wipes JonBenet down, removing bloodstains from JonBenet's groin and thighs, so leaving fibers from his Israeli manufactured shirt on JonBenet. Patsy or John prepare the paintbrush to be used as a handle. Patsy likely ties it in place due to her fibers being found in the knotting.

    Its a moot point whether Patsy knew JonBenet was alive, since due to her brain injury and prior asphyxiation she was going to die, would medical assistance have saved her life, possibly not.

    The final asphyxiation appears to be intended as staging and not as a mercy killing, since the manner of execution is complicated when compared with manual asphyxiation.

    The exact sequence of events is difficult to determine, but conventionally they are

    1. Sexual Assault,

    2. Head Injury

    3. Asphyxiation.

    Coroner Meyer stated verbatim during the autopsy that JonBenet had been subject to a Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact, this confirms 1.

    Coroner Meyer at the autopsy noted the fissure in JonBenet's skull and the internal swelling and bleeding, so confirming 2.

    Coroner Meyer at the autopsy said a partial cause of death was ligature asphyxiation, so confirming 3.

    Some of JonBenet's other injuries were both antemortem, i.e. internal scarring, and perimortem, i.e. abrasions and contusions on her body.

    Some might have been postmortem, i.e. internal injury using the paintbrush, etc.


    .
     
  10. AB1

    AB1 Member

    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    UK Guy,
    Thank you so much for your detailed response.

    "Following this BR performs amateurish staging knowing he will have some explaining to do, e.g. dresses jonBenet in clean size-12's, and a pair of his own long johns, this latter process should effectively cover most of the 45 minutes to 2 hours time gap."

    The 45 minutes (at least) has to be between the head blow and the strangulation.
    So, do you have BR redressing her during this time? When JBR would be unconscious but very likely fitting, perhaps soiling herself (fitting does cause that) then gasping for breath? Even a child in a murderous rage would be likely to recoil from this, even be afraid of it.
    Or do you have him running away or waiting/watching for at least 45 minutes?

    I agree that the Bloomies and boy's longjohns are a later addition or "staging" and my strong instinct - as a mother to one daughter - is that PR did NOT put these on JBR. Sorry chaps, but I see a male hand to that part.

    I agree"the simplest explanation", should suffice, indeed be the default go-to.

    As I said, when taking everything in to account, BDI makes sense.
    Could he have hit her then strangled her immediately after? Yes.
    Could he have hit her, do something else for 45 minutes (wait and watch... assault... run... plan... change her...) then strangle her? Hmmn. That's where my doubt creeps in.

    I struggle with the concept of BR doing everything except the final staging.
    At present, I can only accept BR hitting JBR, redressing her, then strangling her if she is unconscious (a given, I think) and NOT fitting, soiling or gasping for a large part of that time. I am not sure of the statistical probability for that. Does anyone here know?
     
  11. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,382
    Trophy Points:
    113
    AB1,

    assuming BDI, however it played out, and there are other controversial variations, consider if the parents assumed JonBenet was dead, why should BR think otherwise?

    Also there is the outside possibility that the feces soiled pajama pants found on JonBenet's bedroom floor, although belonging to BR, were actually worn by JonBenet that night. This might explain BR's reasoning in redressing JonBenet in his long johns?

    Either way with those soiled pajama pants, the pink pajama pants missing, and Burke's long johns found on JonBenet, there was something going on with the pants. I've never ever seen anyone detail what pajamas Burke Ramsey was wearing the morning after Christmas Day, never mind the night before, when he and JonBenet shared the same bedroom, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more ...

    .
     
  12. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    The Christmas morning photo shows BR in Flintstones PJ's, but I don't believe the bottoms are shown. I can't remember what color they were. Was there a photo of BR's bed on 12/26? I remember it was made but was there anything on the bedspread?
     
  13. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,382
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Cranberry,
    From memory, nothing on the bed and BR's pajama top, even a T-shirt, looked a dark blue color to me?

    If the case is BDI then a change of pajamas was essential for BR.


    .
     
  14. k-mac

    k-mac Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,023
    Likes Received:
    14,706
    Trophy Points:
    113
    patsy ramsey stated on the record that she put JBR in the longjohns.

    uk guy

    there isnt any proof that because JBR slept in BRs room xmas eve that there was nudge nudge wink wink......??

    it is quite probable that a 9 and 6 year old siblings have a completely platonic relationship.
    i dont buy into this because if she sort him out she is looking for his company and i dont believe for a second that she was sexually motivated and if he was molesting her she wouldnt go asking for it.
    jmho
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,382
    Trophy Points:
    113
    k-mac,
    Of course it is, the majority do.

    There is prior evidence, i.e. LHP, that their relationship was more than platonic. Patsy confirmed that JonBenet and Burke shared bedrooms, last on Christmas Eve, and that this was common practice.

    JonBenet has chronic internal injuries, so something was going on with someone.

    Coroner Meyer said verbatim at the autopsy that JonBenet had been subjected to Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact.

    When I add all that up including the fecal deposits, etc, along with the Grand Jury True Bills, I arrive at BDI.

    .
     
  16. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,058
    Likes Received:
    738
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Agree. There is way too much sensationalism is some of these BDI theories.
     
  17. AB1

    AB1 Member

    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Searching for data on the likely presentation of JBR after the blow to the head/traumatic brain injury, I have continued to ponder the 45mins (at least) delay before strangulation. That niggle won’t go away! And a new niggle began - why was she strangled? Why not just wait and hope she dies before an alarm clock rings?

    Starting with JBR lying (somewhere in the house) with a catastrophic brain injury, for the next 45minutes there is horror, panic, the start of planning.
    If PR or JR or a combination, a series of decisions are reached or actions taken, culminating in:
    Strangle JBR.
    Make it look like an intruder.
    Who was also a kidnapper and wanted money.
    But didn’t really want money as they were sexually motivated.

    I have thought, like others, that it clearly wasn’t a criminal master plan (yet somehow it worked!). However, that may be to miss the point entirely, in that perhaps the parts don’t matter and never mattered, because the big plan was to tough it out. Just do it and stick with it, whatever it takes. Lie, feign forgetfulness, blame grief, throw employees and neighbours and good friends whatever under the bus. And so it goes, over the years. Bravado and bluster.

    So, JBR is lying (somewhere in the house) with a catastrophic brain injury.
    So, over the next 45 minutes, why don’t the decisions and actions amount to:
    Say we just found her.
    There is a smashed window.
    An intruder might have hurt her.
    Phone an ambulance.
    Tough it out. Just do it and stick with it, whatever it takes.
    What would be the difference in the bravado and bluster required?
    With this plan, there is no need to strangle JBR or violate her body.

    So why do we have to get to the cord being wrapped round her neck (at least) 45 minutes later?

    Unless the person watching JBR lying on the floor wanted her dead.
    Because when JBR was found lying on the floor, she was already dead.
    Then bravado and bluster had to begin.
     
  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,861
    Likes Received:
    1,382
    Trophy Points:
    113
    AB1,
    If the case is BDI, then BR has already ligature strangled JonBenet, yet she is not really dead.

    45 minutes to 2 hours later along come the parents who want to stage away what is in front of them, so fabricate the ligature/paintbrush device, then mortally asphyxiate JonBenet knowingly or not?

    Basically the way I see it, BDI All or not, is BR assaults, whacks and strangles JonBenet. Along come the parents who attempt to hide or remove the forensic signs of whatever took place.

    The same template would apply to JDI or PDI, just some of the details would vary along with the motivation, i.e. attempted murder followed by crime-scene staging.

    .
     
  19. kanzz

    kanzz kanzz=kansas

    Messages:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Your post speaks to why I think BDI all.

    I think PR was probably upstairs packing for quite some time. BR struck her on the head and she was lying there unconscious. He might have initially thought she would awaken soon. When she didn't, that's when the poking and prodding could have started; followed by the molestation, the wiping down, pulling up &/or changing her underwear and bottoms, and then the strangulation.

    Maybe he ultimately strangled her simply because he was afraid that she was going to wake up and tattle on him.
     
  20. Miz Adventure

    Miz Adventure New Member

    Messages:
    543
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is truly weird.

    I've just posted something very similar to your above post on another thread.

    Great minds think alike!
     

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice