Gun Control Debate #1

Discussion in 'Rampage Killings and Terrorist Attacks' started by Tricia, Feb 17, 2018.

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  1. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator

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    In case you are wondering I have lost my mind.

    Rather than spend hours trying to remove posts in varies discussion that discuss the gun debate I thought I would give this a try just this once.

    The reason I have kept the gun control debate off Websleuths is that people will lose their minds. Sorry not trying to say I don't have faith in you. I am saying I don't have faith in some of you.

    All OF WEBSLEUTHS RULES APPLY.

    No name calling,
    No rudeness
    Mainstream media and respected journals, websites only. No crazy right or left wing sites.

    This is like any other topic on Websleuths.

    If someone could please make a post with the links to the demonstrations coming up that would be a good way to start.

    I will be watching this thread all through the evening.

    Full disclosure. In my opinion, it is obscene that we have automatic weapons available. period. However, I believe that Government will never have the courage to do the right thing and stop taking money from the NRA and start getting these weapons out of the hands of angry people. Therefore it is up to us to try and stop creating the kids who are so angry they feel killing is the only way. We keep waiting on the powers that be to do something and more and more innocents are killed. No more waiting. Let's pinpoint who these kids are and take them out of society, preferably via a mental health facility, and stop the carnage before one more AR-15 or any other assault rifle is picked up by the hands of a potential killer.

    Go for it.

    Tricia
     
  2. drama_farmer

    drama_farmer "It's never just a mannequin"

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    "Let's pinpoint who these kids are and take them out of society"

    How about a Social Media Imminent Threat Task Force, made up of state/regional representatives of all the appropriate "alphabet" agencies. They would have the power and tools available at a Federal level, and the local "boots on the ground" to help coordinate the process of receiving tips, identifying the person in question, assessing the threat and taking action to remove that threat.
     
  3. RANCH

    RANCH Well-Known Member

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    Limiting Access to Guns for Mentally Ill Is Complicated


    I think that it's time for a Federal law that restricts all people with documented serious mental illness from possessing guns. Not just the ones who have been involuntarily committed. A mandatory reporting system to a National data base that would be tied to gun purchases would be used to stop gun sales to these people. This mishmash of state laws isn't enough.

    After that's straightened out we need to expand and enforce laws against convicted felons possessing firearms and ammunition. I am sick and tired of reading about crimes evolving guns and it's reported that the suspect is a convicted felon. They face the strictest gun control in America. They ignore it.

    I propose that if a convicted felon is caught with a firearm or ammunition he will face 20 to life with no early release. This crap where they go back to prison for 5 or 6 months is not a deterrent at all. These miscreants are bouncing in and out of prison, committing crimes with guns with little care about being put away for any real time. That needs to stop.

    JMO


    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/gun-access-mentally-ill.html
     
  4. EuTuCroquet?

    EuTuCroquet? “What's happening to my special purpose!?”

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    My prediction is that the mental health debate regarding gun access will go **exactly nowhere.**

    Why?

    Because, inevitably, the argument boils down to civil and legal and Constitutional liberties.

    Where's the line? Suicidality? Homicidal tendencies? Who would be legally responsible to report? To confiscate?

    Many first responders and law enforcement officers who have to witness these slaughters over and over and over again will have PTSD. Some will be suicidal. Some might be hospitalized. Many will seek counseling.

    Do we take away their firearms? No, of course not.

    Many of the parents and community members and students will be angry, traumatized, suicidal. They'll say things like, "I wanna kill that guy."

    Do they forfeit their second amendment rights, too? No.

    Now, let's realistically broaden the view. Does anyone who has ever been diagnosed suicidal, is being treated for it and owns a firearm forfeit their second amendment rights to protect themselves and their families? No.

    Do our country's servicemen and servicewomen who return home with PTSD, who complete suicide at a higher rate than the national average ... do they forfeit their second amendment rights? No. Of course not.

    Heck, well over half of American citizens are diagnosed with clinical depression, and/or PTSD, and/or severe mental illness, and/or suicidality at some point in their lives. With proper treatment (and very often without it) probably 99 percent don't kill anyone, except maybe themselves — most often with a firearm.

    FIRST: Even IF we could work a loophole into HIPPA, logically, it would essentially require what NOBODY wants, which is the confiscation of weapons.

    SECOND: In order for us to keep guns out of the hands of potentially violent, severely mentally ill people, there will be more regulations. Yet too many believe more laws will change nothing.

    So let's step away from that argument. It's not going to happen.

    It's a diversion. And it restigmatizes mental illness. It's a regressive, damaging, fruitless discussion.

    WE ARE A NATION OF LAWS.

    We want to keep powerful weapons out of the hands of baddies. We all agree on that. Here are a few ideas:

    • Closing the loopholes we have.

    • Consistently enforcing the laws we have.

    • Longer waiting periods

    • Banning bump stocks

    • More stringent background checks

    • Requiring our guns to be insured

    • Changing laws that remove all legal liability from gun owners who do not safely store their weapons.

    • Up to half a million guns are stolen every year in this country — from legal, otherwise law-abiding citizens. That fuels the black market. (It helps baddies get guns.)

    • Requiring gun owners to report when their guns are stolen.

    • Periodic relicensing and retraining

    NONE, BUT NONE, REQUIRE WHOLESALE CONFISCATION, BANNING OF GUNS OR INHIBIT THE RIGHT WE ALL HAVE AS LAW-ABIDING AMERICANS TO DEFEND OUR LIBERTY AND PROPERTY.

    Yeah?

    Actions speak louder than words, and we have to do SOMETHING.

    Because mass shootings aren’t inevitable, CHANGE is.
     
  5. Spellbound

    Spellbound falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus

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    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/plans-school-walkouts-sit-ins-florida-shooting-53171715

    The mass shooting at a Florida high school that left 17 people dead has sparked calls for walkouts, sit-ins and other actions on school campuses across the United States aimed at pushing lawmakers to pass tougher gun laws.

    —
    Organizers behind the Women's March, an anti-Trump and female empowerment protest, called for a 17-minute walkout on March 14

    —
    The Network for Public Education, an advocacy organization for public schools, meanwhile, announced a "national day of action" on April 20 [anniversary of Columbine]

    —


     
  6. yurena

    yurena Well-Known Member

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    Finally discussing what needs to be discussed. Thanks for opening this thread!

    Two articles that I found essential reading this morning as those planning the action are the ones suffering the most from these mass shootings: students. Their insight is crucial and we need to listen to them. Most importantly, politicians and lawmakers need to listen to them and act on what they say.

    Students to boycott schools until Congress acts on Guns - Newsweek

    "In response to Wednesday's school shooting in Florida, high school students and teachers across the country are planning walkouts this spring to push Congress to act on guns".

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/s...gress-acts-on-guns/ar-BBJfLXf#image=BBJ8MV1|2

    Post-Columbine Generation demands action on guns: "We don't deserve this"
    The Guardian (British newspaper)

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ool-shooting-columbine-generation-gun-control

    Powerful statements by Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut on his FB page too where debate is heated at times but interesting to read nonetheless as there are participants from both sides of the political table, NRA members joining in the discussion and it is an opportunity to try to find some common ground.

    I highly recommend having a look at it.
     
  7. EuTuCroquet?

    EuTuCroquet? “What's happening to my special purpose!?”

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    Copying these over from the Florida mass shooting page.

     
  8. RANCH

    RANCH Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind listening to High School students emotional pleas but I hope that my elected politicians use more educated and seasoned sources when considering gun legislation.
     
  9. EuTuCroquet?

    EuTuCroquet? “What's happening to my special purpose!?”

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    Ryan Deitsch, who was among those hiding in a school toilet during the attack, urged lawmakers to pass more restrictive measures on gun ownership.

    "The least lawmakers can do is vote on something. What's the worst that can happen?" the 18-year-old said.

    Protesters also held placards that read "No more guns!" and "Enough!"
    "Because of these gun laws, people I love have died," said Delaney Tarr, a 17-year-old student.

    "Where's the common sense in that? People are dying every day."

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43100329
     
  10. RANCH

    RANCH Well-Known Member

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    I do agree with one point in this post.

    Consistently enforcing the laws we have.
     
  11. EuTuCroquet?

    EuTuCroquet? “What's happening to my special purpose!?”

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  12. EuTuCroquet?

    EuTuCroquet? “What's happening to my special purpose!?”

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    Firearms debate rages as Florida rally coincides with gun show

    https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1G10WB

    “Student survivors of a mass shooting that killed 17 people at a Florida high school called for gun restrictions on Saturday during an angry and somber rally, but attendees at a nearby gun show said firearms could not be blamed for the massacre.

    “Wednesday's shooting in the Fort Lauderdale suburb of Parkland fueled the long-running U.S. debate between supporters of tougher controls on firearms and advocates for gun rights, which are protected by the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment.

    “Both sides of the dispute were on display on Saturday.”
     
  13. RANCH

    RANCH Well-Known Member

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    BBM

    This is why we shouldn't use High School students ideas as being well thought out arguments for more gun control.
     
  14. Spellbound

    Spellbound falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus

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    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...-america-school-shootings-20180215-story.html
    So far this year, there have been at least seven school shootings in the United States. That's more than one a week, more school shootings than many countries have ever had

    A couple of years ago, the Academy for Critical Incident Analysis collected data on school violence around the world. They took a broad look at incidents where someone was killed, or a murder was attempted, and charted every one that had two or more victims. (Researchers left out "single homicides, off-campus homicides, killings caused by government actions, militaries, terrorists or militants." So, incidents like this one, where a U.S. airstrike in Syria accidentally hit a school and market and killed 30, are not included.)
    Between 2000 and 2010, the recorded 57 incidents in 36 countries.
    Half of those incidents — 28 — occurred in the United States.

    That's because Americans have a disproportionate number of guns (at least 300 million, about one per person), especially handguns and semiautomatic weapons. (A bullet from an AR-15 rifle, which the alleged shooter used in the Florida attack Wednesday, can penetrate a steel helmet from five hundred yards. As the New Yorker put it: "When fired from close range at civilians who aren't wearing body armor, the bullets from an AR-15 don't merely penetrate the human body — they tear it apart. It 'looks like a grenade went off in there,' Peter Rhee, a trauma surgeon at the University of Arizona, told Wired.")

    Also, as my WorldViews colleague Rick Noack points out, we're much more lax about who can by and keep weapons, and it's harder for children and adults to access mental health services.
     
  15. thorpedo

    thorpedo Member

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    The kids are grieving.
     
  16. Really?

    Really? Well-Known Member

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    I am kinda ( a lot ) sick of some person creating such a horrific crime only to later find out they were " on the radar"....
     
  17. Spellbound

    Spellbound falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus

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    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

    [h=1]What Explains U.S. Mass Shootings? International Comparisons Suggest an Answer[/h]The United States has 270 million guns and had
    90 mass shooters from 1966 to 2012.

    No other country has more than 46 million gunsor 18 mass shooters.

    The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns.

    Adjusted for population, only Yemen has a higher rate of mass shootings among countries with more than 10 million people — a distinction Mr. Lankford urged to avoid outliers. Yemen has the world’s second-highest rate of gun ownership after the United States.

    A 2015 study estimated that only 4 percent of American gun deaths could be attributed to mental health issues.

    Whether a population plays more or fewer video games also appears to have no impact.

    Racial diversity or other factors associated with social cohesion also show little correlation with gun deaths.


    More gun ownership corresponds with more gun murders across virtually every axis: among developed countries, among American states, among American towns and cities and when controlling for crime rates. And gun control legislation tends to reduce gun murders, according to a recent analysis of 130 studies from 10 countries.
    This suggests that the guns themselves cause the violence.

    The United States also has some of the weakest controls over who may buy a gun and what sorts of guns may be owned.

    After Britain had a mass shooting in 1987, the country instituted strict gun control laws. So did Australia after a 1996 shooting. But the United States has repeatedly faced the same calculus and determined that relatively unregulated gun ownership is worth the cost to society.
    That choice, more than any statistic or regulation, is what most sets the United States apart.
    “In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate,” Dan Hodges, a British journalist, wrote in a post on Twitter two years ago, referring to the 2012 attack that killed 20 young students at an elementary school in Connecticut. “Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.”
     
  18. RANCH

    RANCH Well-Known Member

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    Yes they are.
     
  19. yurena

    yurena Well-Known Member

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    I totally understand what you say Ranch but sometimes with some politicians it's the emotional pleas that would get them to pay attention first before they start focusing on the evidence and facts, get their advisers to carry out research, urgent meetings etc which prompt them to change laws.

    We need to start somewhere, the main thing is that: to start.
     
  20. RANCH

    RANCH Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link . How do you propose to remove all of the guns in the United States?
     
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