Gun Control Debate #1

[rsd1200]

It seems there was a joke at the school that if there was ever a shooting it would be committed by the person that just committed it. It was funny and they were just children then. It's a an angry screaming match now and they are activists.

I think if they want to ask questions, they need to listen to the answer. As one of them had to yell at other students, "If I can't hear her, I can't come up with a rebuttal.' Never mind that deciding to rebut something you've not yet heard is not an honest inquiry, you can't scream and sneer your way to reform.

This was a political rally, not a discussion.

I honestly thought they did much better than most all of the adults who debated for potus this last election.

 

[kimlynn]

It seems there was a joke at the school that if there was ever a shooting it would be committed by the person that just committed it. It was funny and they were just children then. It's a an angry screaming match now and they are activists.

I think if they want to ask questions, they need to listen to the answer. As one of them had to yell at other students, "If I can't hear her, I can't come up with a rebuttal.' Never mind that deciding to rebut something you've not yet heard is not an honest inquiry, you can't scream and sneer your way to reform.

This was a political rally, not a discussion.

Sheriff said they (the kids) are tired of the bs. This is important to them and they need to be heard. IMO
It isn't as though we haven't already heard the same tired lines from the political side and the NRA.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I think it's when the federal government gets into the individual's business, the word definition business, or the knee-jerking to public pressure business that we get into trouble.

Respectfully, almost 20 years after Columbine isn’t knee-jerk public pressure, imo.

And government, by its literal and figurative definition, governs people.

MOO

 

[jillycat]

I honestly thought they did much better than most all of the adults who debated for potus this last election.

I didn't see a lot of adults debating anything last election. I did hear a lot of screaming and ranting from the far wings of both sides.

I'm sorry to see the adult lobbyists who got this movement going and then got it to CNN instructing these kids in screaming and booing. It would be more honest for these lobbyists to just say they've having a political rally on the backs of the victims that died.

 

[gregjrichards]

Do you think this will be the terrible tragedy that finally brings some change to gun laws?

I have been watching the survivors and the victims families pleas for change and I hope it happens.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

It seems there was a joke at the school that if there was ever a shooting it would be committed by the person that just committed it. It was funny and they were just children then. It's a an angry screaming match now and they are activists.

I think if they want to ask questions, they need to listen to the answer. As one of them had to yell at other students, "If I can't hear her, I can't come up with a rebuttal.' Never mind that deciding to rebut something you've not yet heard is not an honest inquiry, you can't scream and sneer your way to reform.

This was a political rally, not a discussion.

IMO, they have a right to be pissed as all get out. Our kids are tired of being hunted and massacred.

I think it’s wonderful that our country is finally willing to have a public, large discussion on gun control. I’m not going tit-for-tat with specific examples how patronizing and politicized some of the non-answer answers were.

People honestly voicing their opinions can be really uncomfortable, but that comes with working through uncomfortable topics.

It’s a passionate debate, but more minds are coming together. Looking for solutions. Partisanship is irrelevant, imo. This isn’t a left our right issue. Not when almost 100 percent of Americans agree there needs to be some kind of gun control, and agrees on something as common-sense as universal background checks.

(Link/source in my comments, and upthread a smidge.)

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Do you think this will be the terrible tragedy that finally brings some change to gun laws?

I have been watching the survivors and the victims families pleas for change and I hope it happens.

I hope that if we get stricter gun laws, then we will also **enforce** criminal charges for those that commit crimes with guns as well as those found with guns that are not allowed to own them. No easy passes, no plea deals, no legal compromises.

 

[jillycat]

Respectfully, almost 20 years after Columbine isn’t knee-jerk public pressure, imo.

And government, by its literal and figurative definition, governs people.

MOO

Suddenly banning bump stocks is knee-jerking to the screaming for government to do something, anything. Before the Las Vegas shooting, the only known shooting where bump stocks were said to have been used, the average person didn't know what a bump stock was. Yet, now that we had another school shooting where no bump stocks were involved, we're rushing to ban bump stocks because of the something/anything pressure and people believe this has meaningful impact.

I can see the various sides to the bump stock issue. My problem with something/anything is that not all somethings equal meaningful outcomes.

And I'll go out on a limb and suggest that if the media starts beating its drum about Glock 19's or Beretta M9's or even bold action shotguns, and the lobbies froth over those and it's on CNN every night, we'll see shooters preferring those guns.

The VA shooter used a Glock 19 and a Walther P22 to slaughter 32 people. Why do we not talk about the handguns and shot guns and other style rifles and explosives being used in these crimes?

 

[kaen]

Actually, these kids are shouting down answers they don't like because they're unwilling to have a conversation.

I saw that a bit differently. I thought they shouted down people when they did not answer the questions directly. They asked pointed and direct questions that were uncomfortable answering. Were some hitting the "over the line" on kindness? Yes, that said, overall they had an experience that is akin to being in a war zone and are tired of listening to people want to pat their heads and tell them to go home and grieve quietly. Don't forget they have also experienced a government official questioning their authenticity, seen media outlets claiming that they are being manipulated and have recognized that this should have been avoided. I am sure they are tired of all of it.

 

[jillycat]

IMO, they have a right to be pissed as all get out. Our kids are tired of being hunted and massacred.

I think it’s wonderful that our country is finally willing to have a public, large discussion on gun control. I’m not going tit-for-tat with specific examples how patronizing and politicized some of the non-answer answers were.

People honestly voicing their opinions can be really uncomfortable, but that comes with working through uncomfortable topics.

It’s a passionate debate, but more minds are coming together. Looking for solutions. Partisanship is irrelevant, imo. This isn’t a left our right issue. Not when almost 100 percent of Americans agree there needs to be some kind of gun control, and agrees on something as common-sense as universal background checks.

(Link/source in my comments, and upthread a smidge.)

I wish partisanship was irrelevant but that's just not true in the gun debate. Why else would the anti-gun lobby and CNN have a square-off with a Republican senator and an NRA spokesperson?

Maybe there's more depth to the discussion than the partisans and lobbyists from the party wings have to offer? I think so.

 

[kaen]

Suddenly banning bump stocks is knee-jerking to the screaming for government to do something, anything. Before the Las Vegas shooting, the only known shooting where bump stocks were said to have been used, the average person didn't know what a bump stock was. Yet, now that we had another school shooting where no bump stocks were involved, we're rushing to ban bump stocks because of the something/anything pressure and people believe this has meaningful impact.

I can see the various sides to the bump stock issue. My problem with something/anything is that not all somethings equal meaningful outcomes.

And I'll go out on a limb and suggest that if the media starts beating its drum about Glock 19's or Beretta M9's or even bold action shotguns, and the lobbies froth over those and it's on CNN every night, we'll see shooters preferring those guns.

The VA shooter used a Glock 19 and a Walther P22 to slaughter 32 people. Why do we not talk about the handguns and shot guns and other style rifles and explosives being used in these crimes?

I think the supporters of no change to gun laws are throwing the bump stock bone as a way of saying we are doing something. Our elected officials have a conundrum here. The president told the NRA he would have their back very publicly. Now the call about who and how the NRA supports has taken a new meaning----"for a contribution I will be there for you", more of a quid pro quo. Tonight Rubio was trying to say that the NRA supports his agenda not visa versa but that narrative is almost impossible to walk back given the political climate. So, the strategy seems to be not to give up something big but throw some bones---bump rocks, fed/state coordinated background checks (the NRA spokesperson said they want that but I want to see what the NRA has said in writing).

The NRA to my knowledge is against raising the rifle age to 21... so I think that will not be an easy bone to throw.

The armed teachers thing----just awful. Teachers want to teach. Schools/government should pay armed officers to be the people with guns. But, that is my opinion.

 

[rsd1200]

I didn't see a lot of adults debating anything last election. I did hear a lot of screaming and ranting from the far wings of both sides.

I'm sorry to see the adult lobbyists who got this movement going and then got it to CNN instructing these kids in screaming and booing. It would be more honest for these lobbyists to just say they've having a political rally on the backs of the victims that died.

Agree w/the lack of debating. It was embarrassing to watch.

I don't believe anyone is performing for the cameras here. I think they're p*ssed. I honestly do not know how I'd be reacting if I'd been hunted down by a mad man, who was my classmate w/an AR-15, in my school.

The first time that my spouse fired ours, I was sitting here on the couch, and had the door open, to the back deck. I wasn't really expecting it and nearly jumped out of my chair! We had a .44 magnum revolver, at one time, and it was the loudest I'd heard until we got the semi. I can't imagine being trapped in a building and hunted with one.

Some of these kids may even be in shock. I was in shock for two weeks, after I had a bad m/c wreck, and then one day, we had to pass the site, and it all came crashing down.

 

[jillycat]

Agree w/the lack of debating. It was embarrassing to watch.

I don't believe anyone is performing for the cameras here. I think they're p*ssed. I honestly do not know how I'd be reacting if I'd been hunted down by a mad man, who was my classmate w/an AR-15, in my school.

The first time that my spouse fired ours, I was sitting here on the couch, and had the door open, to the back deck. I wasn't really expecting it and nearly jumped out of my chair! We had a .44 magnum revolver, at one time, and it was the loudest I'd heard until we got the semi. I can't imagine being trapped in a building and hunted with one.

Some of these kids may even be in shock. I was in shock for two weeks, after I had a bad m/c wreck, and then one day, we had to pass the site, and it all came crashing down.

That's what I think is sad. The trauma of this event and seeing the gunning down of other people has not even begun to settle and will be with these victims for life. I don't believe that these kids just woke up after a shooting and happened to start spontaneously speaking the word for word narrative of political lobbies. I'm not saying they don't feel or believe some of those things. But I think it's disturbing that reporters were shoving cameras in their faces within less than 24 hours and some, well, one for sure, appeared coached, however willingly.

Mass fervor is a powerful feeling. And then there's what actually happened in that school and the fact that there was a raging war of words and false associations and fallacious claims and ranting and finger pointing, before the bodies of those precious kids were even removed, is shameful. So shame on any adult who was and is fueling that.

I do think the 'assault' weapons language is dishonest and only fuels more fear and rage. The AR platform is just that - a rifle platform that in a mission to take as many lives as possible is just another choice. He could have killed just as many and more with other guns, including handguns. I think people are gaining a false sense of security about lessening mass shooting casualties by singling out that platform.

I heard someone say that being armed with a handgun when the other party has an AR is not a fair fight and that just doesn't really make sense. I think for there to be common sense solutions the theater and false claim-making has to get cleaned up because people, including and often especially members of Congress, aren't even stating facts.

 

[CARIIS]

He. Devastated. Me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYH-MKLLOkE

here are his texts

http://www.lovewhatmatters.com/text...-chills-were-gonna-get-out-of-here-i-promise/

 

[jillycat]

I think the supporters of no change to gun laws are throwing the bump stock bone as a way of saying we are doing something. Our elected officials have a conundrum here. The president told the NRA he would have their back very publicly. Now the call about who and how the NRA supports has taken a new meaning----"for a contribution I will be there for you", more of a quid pro quo. Tonight Rubio was trying to say that the NRA supports his agenda not visa versa but that narrative is almost impossible to walk back given the political climate. So, the strategy seems to be not to give up something big but throw some bones---bump rocks, fed/state coordinated background checks (the NRA spokesperson said they want that but I want to see what the NRA has said in writing).

The NRA to my knowledge is against raising the rifle age to 21... so I think that will not be an easy bone to throw.

The armed teachers thing----just awful. Teachers want to teach. Schools/government should pay armed officers to be the people with guns. But, that is my opinion.

At least he showed, but geez not even the Republicans like Rubio.

I don't want to see teachers armed either. Agree it's a job for paid professionals proficient in use of firearms and trained for gunfights.

 

[jillycat]

Sheriff said they (the kids) are tired of the bs. This is important to them and they need to be heard. IMO
It isn't as though we haven't already heard the same tired lines from the political side and the NRA.

I haven't heard anyone say they shouldn't be heard. And both sides of the aisle are tiring.

 

[rsd1200]

That's what I think is sad. The trauma of this event and seeing the gunning down of other people has not even begun to settle and will be with these victims for life. I don't believe that these kids just woke up after a shooting and happened to start spontaneously speaking the word for word narrative of political lobbies. I'm not saying they don't feel or believe some of those things. But I think it's disturbing that reporters were shoving cameras in their faces within less than 24 hours and some, well, one for sure, appeared coached, however willingly.

Mass fervor is a powerful feeling. And then there's what actually happened in that school and the fact that there was a raging war of words and false associations and fallacious claims and ranting and finger pointing, before the bodies of those precious kids were even removed, is shameful. So shame on any adult who was and is fueling that.

I do think the 'assault' weapons language is dishonest and only fuels more fear and rage. The AR platform is just that - a rifle platform that in a mission to take as many lives as possible is just another choice. He could have killed just as many and more with other guns, including handguns. I think people are gaining a false sense of security about lessening mass shooting casualties by singling out that platform.

I heard someone say that being armed with a handgun when the other party has an AR is not a fair fight and that just doesn't really make sense. I think for there to be common sense solutions the theater and false claim-making has to get cleaned up because people, including and often especially members of Congress, aren't even stating facts.

I think they're tired of it though. I agree with them, how many shootings does it take? When is it right for them to speak? They're nearly old enough to join the military. The one kid is joining. If he goes into battle he's gonna see what he just lived through, all over again, at only months older. After Sandy Hook, the adults should have gotten their ***** together and taken some initiative so these kids wouldn't have to be making the adult folks feel uncomfortable around them.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Thank you, Jinks!

A 2016 research article by Dr. Peter Langman that examined where the school shooters obtained their weapons from 1991 to 2015.

" It is noteworthy that the juvenile shooters almost never obtained their weapons “on the street.” In the vast majority of cases, young shooters took guns that belonged to their parents and other relatives. Out of all the cases in which the preptrators took family members’ firearms, it appears that all of these guns were owned legally except those used by Evan Ramsey and Jaylen Fryberg (see notes for details). The guns owned by family members were not purchased with the intent of committing mass violence, but were accessible to adolescent (and even pre-adolescent) perpetrators. This highlights the importance of firearm security within the home."

https://schoolshooters.info/sites/default/files/origins_of_firearms_1.1.pdf

 

[kaen]

I think they're tired of it though. I agree with them, how many shootings does it take? When is it right for them to speak? They're nearly old enough to join the military. The one kid is joining. If he goes into battle he's gonna see what he just lived through, all over again, at only months older. After Sandy Hook, the adults should have gotten their ***** together and taken some initiative so these kids wouldn't have to be making the adult folks feel uncomfortable around them.

Yes, and one student mentioned that he had sat in a bathroom for three hours in fifth grade due to a threat in the community. They have practiced, know the codes, and did what they were taught to do. It didn't help.They want something rather than the nothing offered as the tragedy unfolded.--they don't think it is too soon.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

That is powerful testimony.

He. Devastated. Me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYH-MKLLOkE

here are his texts

http://www.lovewhatmatters.com/text...-chills-were-gonna-get-out-of-here-i-promise/