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Gun Control Debate #2

Discussion in 'Rampage Killings and Terrorist Attacks' started by Tricia, Feb 17, 2018.

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  1. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator

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    In case you are wondering I have lost my mind.

    Rather than spend hours trying to remove posts in varies discussion that discuss the gun debate I thought I would give this a try just this once.

    The reason I have kept the gun control debate off Websleuths is that people will lose their minds. Sorry not trying to say I don't have faith in you. I am saying I don't have faith in some of you.

    All OF WEBSLEUTHS RULES APPLY.

    No name calling,
    No rudeness
    Mainstream media and respected journals, websites only. No crazy right or left wing sites.

    This is like any other topic on Websleuths.

    If someone could please make a post with the links to the demonstrations coming up that would be a good way to start.

    I will be watching this thread all through the evening.

    Full disclosure. In my opinion, it is obscene that we have automatic weapons available. period. However, I believe that Government will never have the courage to do the right thing and stop taking money from the NRA and start getting these weapons out of the hands of angry people. Therefore it is up to us to try and stop creating the kids who are so angry they feel killing is the only way. We keep waiting on the powers that be to do something and more and more innocents are killed. No more waiting. Let's pinpoint who these kids are and take them out of society, preferably via a mental health facility, and stop the carnage before one more AR-15 or any other assault rifle is picked up by the hands of a potential killer.

    Go for it.

    Tricia

    Thread #1
     
  2. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator

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    You all have been posting some amazing thoughts and information.

    Most of you.

    Let's lay down some rules that should keep everything on track.

    1-NO DISCUSSION OF TRUMP OTHER THAN HOW HE IS DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE GUN CONTROL DEBATE
    This means no mention of how much he is hated or loved, anything to do with his tweeting unless it is gun control related.

    2-WE CAN ALL AGREE TRUMP HAD NOTES DURING THE MEETING. End of story. Yes, I know some of the notes were telling or maybe not. IT IS NOT IMPORTANT.
    Let's bring the discussion back to guns.

    3-PLEASE STOP WITH THE ACCUSATION THAT THESE KIDS ARE BASICALLY PUPPETS. They are kids. They will get help from adults and adults would be involved. They will get a lot of help from adults who agree with them. Don't know how you feel but I am so proud of these young people it brings tears to my eyes.

    4-PLEASE LET PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT OPINIONS EXPRESS THEM WITHOUT ATTACKING. I want to hear from the people who believe differently than I do. If someone posts an unpopular opinion, of course, you can challenge them but do it in a way where I don't have to remove your post and time you out. Please. Let every opinion be heard and discussed in a mature manner. As long as the opinions expressed are within our Terms of Service.

    OK. Be nice to each other and let the discussion begin.

    Thank you,
    Tricia
     
  3. Blef

    Blef Verified Criminologist

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    So can I bring my question of why a civilian needs a military grade weapon in their home over here? There hasn't been an answer to that question yet.
     
  4. CARIIS

    CARIIS Spelling Bee Winner - Kindergarden!

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    Attn all parents. Calling all parents.

    Lets review:

    Teachers packing heat. MOO my hunch would be educators that wanted to be SWAT members would have chosen that vocation.

    Adept teachers packing heat. How is that determined?

    Veterans roaming the hallways? Most suffer PTSD. A hallmark of PTSD is flashbacks when exposed to triggers that recall traumatic experiences.

    I would think machine guns blazing in the background might recall Iraq. Just mo.

    . All we need is veterans , in flashback, thinking a bunch of screaming and running kids , in flashback , while machine gun is blazing away might result in kids being ISIS on the attack. In w3ar , when thinking enemy is attacking you shoot. Nah



    Not smart.

    This generation loves "dares". [FONT=&amp]"You come into our schools - you're gonna be dead. And it's gonna be fast,"

    [/FONT]Give me a break...........scary times and notions

    If ya want keep them out till Nov -- a semester behind is better than deceased .

    moo[FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT]http://abc7chicago.com/news/trump-to-state-and-local-officials--we-have-to-harden-our-schools/3124514/

    Recommendations thus far per MSNBC - town hall meetings and listening thing in the people's Oval office.
     
  5. Blef

    Blef Verified Criminologist

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    The arming of teachers or school staff is short-sighted. Are they going to authorize these staff to carry assault rifles, like so are often used in these killings? What good would a pistol be against someone with an assault rifle? And I'm sure the staff won't just be allowed to walk around with a loaded gun on them as what would stop someone from getting it off them, and then that person has a gun in school. So what good would a locked up, unloaded weapon be against some disaffected teenager with an arsenal of semi-automatic and military grade assault weapons? Guns shouldn't be in schools. Period.
     
  6. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    We decry bulyying, We decry school violence.

    What some people are saying is that using a gun is the way to solve problems,

    If people in charge are saying this, it seems some kids pick up on that message.

    That is why even elementary school children bring a gun to school to deal with a problem. They have learned it and adults have taught them this.
     
  7. Blef

    Blef Verified Criminologist

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    That's exactly what I am picking up. It's like "How do we solve this gun problem? Lets just throw more guns at it!"
     
  8. watergirl62

    watergirl62 .

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    I don't have a problem with teachers carrying as long as they are qualified and licensed and there are some annual certification requirements. [emoji95]
     
  9. Blef

    Blef Verified Criminologist

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    Can I ask you some questions, respectfully of course.

    Would these teachers carry military assault rifles like these school shooters often have?

    Would these weapons be loaded and not locked up, ie kept on their person? And if they are, how would you stop a disaffected student grabbing the gun and shooting it?

    If the guns are not on the person or loaded, how are they going to be effective at stopping a shooter?
     
  10. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    By the time a teacher figures out there is a threat, s/he is dead.

    For those not familiar with lockdown, the teacher is in charge of getting the children to a safe spot.

    When I was a teacher, that was a spot that had been selected based on the following choices.

    1.Not in a bullet trajectory. Examine the windows and see where bullets may travel.

    2.Examine the walls. Which ones are strong enough to withstand bullets

    3.Do mot place children next to each other as bullets can penetrate through a group of several children as if they are butter

    4.Turn off all lights.

    5.Close any drapes or pull shades on windows.

    6. Keep children quiet and calm.

    Who does these tasks if the teacher is out roaming the halls to stop a shooter?

    If the above tasks are accomplished, the shooter is not in your room. If the tasks are being worked on, and the shooter comes into your room, you are dead. Your door should be locked.

    I have the statistics of how often police strike a target in a gun fight. It is 18%.

    If this is not agreeable, then others may have different data,

    Are teachers going to practice daily to keep up their skills? Already as a teacher I worked evenings, weekends and holidays to get my classroom preparation for my students everyday.
     
  11. Jinkasaurus

    Jinkasaurus Well-Known Member

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    A segment on NPR today reviewed the various gun control measures that might be on the table at this point.

    IIRC, they were:

    - 3-day waiting period (this may have more impact on suicides than homicides)

    - restriction of size of magazines (this could decrease number of casualties during shooting events)

    - teachers being able to conceal carry (lots of opposition by teachers/administrators; how are weapons kept secure from students, yet accessible quickly, etc)

    - restriction of assault rifles (may not have large effect as number of mass shootings relative to murders with handguns is very low)

    - make bump stocks illegal (may not have much impact as mass shootings are extremely rare in general)

    - ability to temporarily restrict someone from possessing guns based on concerning behavior ("red flag" laws)

    After listening to this, I found myself thinking the best place to focus is the red flag laws.

    These would allow us to focus on a person's actual behavior rather than whether they have a certain mental health diagnosis. It is much, much more realistic to think that law enforcement could get involved when they've been told someone is writing stories about shooting up a school, acting withdrawn, or has been buying more weapons, etc, than if they're told that someone has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

    Changes in behavior, and unusual or concerning behavior are things that other people can observe. A mental health diagnosis is not something that can be observed. A mental health diagnosis is also not predictive of behavior.

    This type of law could encourage and empower people in the community to start looking harder for red flags and report them. There could be education provided in the form of PSAs, trainings at schools, in parenting classes, etc, to help people start to learn the more subtle types of red flags to look for. Red flag laws could also have an impact on suicides and domestic violence murders.

    I think there is a lot that both sides could agree with in terms of the red flag laws.
     
  12. Blef

    Blef Verified Criminologist

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    RBBM. There are almost as many mass shootings in the US as there are days in the year, each year
     
  13. ohreally

    ohreally Active Member

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    I do not mean any disrespect to the students that are speaking out about gun control. No way do I believe they are crises acters. This is my state it happened and these students are genuine.
    What I have a problem with is the media not giving all students that were at the school an equal opportunity to speak. Regarding the CNN discussion a student from the school states that he was not allowed to talk about security guards on campus. I believe him. I don't believe that those in attendance had scripted answers but I do believe that CNN determined what would be discussed.
    Again, I have great respect for all the students speaking out it takes a lot of courage on thier part. I wish we had the statistics on how all 4000 students feel about gun control. We will never know since 100 cannot speak for 4000, and if those with opposing view points are not heard.
    I feel for these students when they go back to class. I worry that instead of coming together as a school that there will be big problems on campus if not all are allowed to speak about how they feel.
    Tricia, if you find my post any way offensive please delete because I am not in any way meaning to disrespect the students that were on CNN or that went to Tallahassee. I just feel the media needs to let every student speak equally.
    I don't always explain myself well and this hits close to home working in a school in Florida.
     
  14. BayouBelle_LA

    BayouBelle_LA Well-Known Member

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    NRA hits back: LaPierre, at CPAC, says 'opportunists' exploiting Florida tragedy for 'political gain'

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...iting-florida-tragedy-for-political-gain.html

    LaPierre said the “elites don't care not one whit about school children. If they truly cared, what they would do is protect them.”

    He also reiterated calls for “trained armed security” in schools.

    “The whole idea from some of our opponents that armed security makes us less safe is completely ridiculous,” he said.
     
  15. watergirl62

    watergirl62 .

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    Respectfully.
    1. Not just no, but oh hell no.
    2. No.
    3. I would prefer locked in safe in the teachers classroom.
    4. No guarantees of effectiveness, but in the event they would have access. I do not have a problem with a qualified teacher wanting to protect students.
     
  16. Tillicum

    Tillicum Well-Known Member

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    I watched an interview with him on another channel and to be honest I felt uncomfortable with it. I believe him too but I fear these children will be used on both sides. I actually feel concerned for him now that he's spoken out. IMO those with views different from the majority we've seen in the media, won't want to speak out. All JMO
     
  17. CARIIS

    CARIIS Spelling Bee Winner - Kindergarden!

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    ahhhhhh

    if it takes longer than 72 hours for background check to come back its come and get it !!

    msnbc

    however it is all a farce gun shows have no background individual gun owner to gun buyer (lets do ebay!) nothing

    Fl is the wild west!

    here are the gun shows its bigger than a Beounce tour! HA

    http://www.floridagunshows.com/
     
  18. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    How many armed security guards at each school? Who pays?

    Already teachers buy supplies for their classrooms. I used to spend $2000 a year out of pocket as I taught in a poverty school.

    There are no after school programs. No after school tutoring, Many places do not have recreation programs for kids. No quality daycare.

    Art and music are cut,

    But there will be money for security guards.

    Insanity.
     
  19. KaaBoom

    KaaBoom `·.¸¸ ><((((º> ...·´`·.¸¸ ><((((º>...·

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    I take issue that mass shootings are extremely rare. They may be rare outside the US, but here they are a common everyday occurrence.
     
  20. CARIIS

    CARIIS Spelling Bee Winner - Kindergarden!

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    Myth two

    No One with mental illness should have a gun

    The truth here is the most acute do not have access to any treatment - not working living on the street etc

    so exactly how is that determination going to get into this system that only has 38 states entering data

    Acute mental illness is a lot about lack of insight



    the majority of those suffering acutely do not have insight to know they are ill

    all of this totally ignore private practitioners do you guys have any idea what would have to happen to mandate private practitioners to break our version of hippocratic oath its in our blood
    confidentiality and privileged communication
    who is going to enforce ( making number up ) the 47, 000 practitioners in private practice?

    all health delivery systems are overwhelmed . To do this would be just like the Hippa role out that took like 18 months

    staff in any health care setting do not have the time to enter everyone in another data base -- that requires training as well

    everyone has to be trained on the new law forms have be designed



    hey the kids are awesome -- primarily for a whole new educated group of voters that ( all the way around is good)

    What is the consequence for a private practitioner who misses entering or finds it so abhorrent to confidentiality oath that they wont do it ? How is anyone gonna enforce that ?

    Le are not trained mental health providers. In much the same way we are not LE having cops determining who needs to be Baker acted is identical to giving me arrest powers !!

    What will actually happen is LE would do dumps -- toss everyone at a mental health facility and the person becomes an overwhelmed system issue.

    do i have an answer no but the hot air emerging indicates that the powers that be have no clue what they are talking about!

    why 11 states dont enter ANY data into the system now I have no idea but that is the way it is now how is that changed

    turning schools into army bases is not different than TSA and airplanes has not been an airplane issue in some time so they move to trucks machine guns suicide bombers

    we do not have the money to turn our schools into to nuclear bomb shelters !!

    Lets not forget gun running mobs gangs overseas imports internet sales craigslist like stuff the 310 million guns already out there stealing guns from private people drug dealers have ability the to sell crooked cops selling mafia like stuff



    not being a bummer just rambling as I listen to all the stuff that has come out the last week as it relates to fooling the public

    at the end of the day it really is the acceptance , as a society we have about cars killing what 50 000 a year

    PS Someone in the oval office who needs a cheat sheet to remind him to have some empathy for a bunch of kids mauled last week in and of itself is somewhat problematic

    media zoomed in on his little list in his hands he had to be told to say I hear you





    moo
     
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