Gun Control Debate #2

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So sad. A police officer/former Marine gets choked up ... they're all so overwhelmed. Heartbreaking. Cops can barely contain this terror — nobody deserves this. (Video at link, too.)

Lots more at link.


Florida shooting first responders describe moment they entered school

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/25/us/florida-school-shooting-first-responders/index.html

He jumped into his car and sped toward Marjory Stoneman Douglas High at 100 mph, lights and sirens on, he said at a news conference.

When he arrived, he grabbed his rifle and raced toward Building 12, the site of most of the carnage. As he got closer, he found other officers tending to injured students and joined them, applying gauze to students' wounds to stop the bleeding, he said.

"We are all issued combat gauze -- which is basically a piece of gauze with a clotting agent inside of it that you stuff inside the wounds," he said.
(snip)

After paramedics arrived, the former Marine rushed into the building, where he was joined by others from his department and deputies from the Broward County Sheriff's Office, he said.

The building was riddled with bullet holes, with spent shell casings scattered all over.

Instead of smoke alarms and screaming, there was silence. Victims with gunshot wounds lay in the hallways.

(snip)

"The third class ... I knocked on the door and told them 'I'm Coral Springs Police.' They said they were not going to open the door. I had to negotiate with them ... they made me slide my ID under the door. I could hear more and more desks get pushed up [against] the door," he said.

(snip)

"It was awful -- it's as bad as you can imagine, times 10," he said.

"Every time I turned around, there was another officer with blood [of victims] all over them. It was horrendous. ... I have a 2-year-old. I don't want to send him to school," he continued.

Crawford and other officers got about 70 students in one room and told them to call their parents and let them know they were safe.

Then he stood guard outside their door as he waited for SWAT members, he said.
 
Why this Utah teacher says she supports arming teachers with guns in schools


“It broke my heart to think that all the teachers could do was huddle their kids in a corner, stand in front of them and pray that nothing was going to come through that classroom door,” Hansen told ABC News’ “Nightline.”

Kasey Hansen said she believes teachers should have the ability to defend their students.
“I'm just a teacher who wants to protect her students. I'm not going to roam the halls if I hear lockdown is occurring and someone's in the building. I'm not going to go looking for him,” Hansen said. “That's not my job. My job is to lock the classroom. Turn off all the lights. Get the kids in the corner and be ready.”

“How long is it going to take for the police to get there? And how long is it going to take for them to roam the halls? My school is a big school,” Hansen said. “The gunman could be anywhere. He could be in my room clear across campus and it's going to take a while for the police to figure out.”

http://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-teacher-supports-arming-teachers-guns-schools/story?id=53287677
 
important.


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/us/politics/nra-gun-control-florida.html

WASHINGTON — Few places have seen the National Rifle Association wield its might more effectively than Florida, where it has advanced a sweeping agenda that has made it easier to carry concealed weapons, given gun owners greater leeway to shoot in self-defense and even briefly barred doctors from asking patients about their firearms.

In Florida and other states across the country, as well as on Capitol Hill, the N.R.A. derives its political influence instead from a muscular electioneering machine, fueled by tens of millions of dollars’ worth of campaign ads and voter-guide mailings, that scrutinizes candidates for their views on guns and propels members to the polls

“It’s the ability of the N.R.A. to tell its members: Here’s who’s good on the Second Amendment.”

The N.R.A.’s impact comes, in large part, from the simplicity of the incentives it presents to political candidates: letter grades, based on their record on the Second Amendment, that guide the N.R.A.’s involvement in elections. Lawmakers who earn an “A” rating can count on the group not to oppose them when they run for re-election or higher office.

or candidates who earn lower grades, the group deploys a range of blunt-force methods against them. The N.R.A. mails the voter guides to its five million members, displaying images of favored candidates on the front, and some state chapters bombard supporters with emails about coming elections



God, this is so sinister

 
This is why just arming teachers doesn't solve the gun violence problem, imo.

This is armed combat-level gun violence.

Parkland Shooting: Officer Gets Emotional as He Reveals Son, Wife Were in the School as Gunfire Erupted

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/parkland-shooting-officer-gets-emotional-193623569.html

Firefighters, paramedics, and other officers, including Tim Burton and Chris Crawford, were also with Heinrich Friday at a press conference.

Officer Burton, a 12-year veteran, was headed toward the school but encountered some traffic, so he grabbed his rifle and started running toward the scene. As he was running to the school, a security guard spotted him in a golf cart and gave him a lift to the area. (snip)

He provided cover for four other officers who went inside the school to locate the shooter. Later, Burton was asked to join a search team where he located 50 to 100 students huddled inside the band room.

"This one's pretty tough," Burton said. "You can't get rid of this one. This will be with me forever."
 
Yes, kitty. Sinister is a good word to describe it, imo. (rbbm) Maybe our law reform should do more to stop this pay-for-play electioneering, too.

important.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/us/politics/nra-gun-control-florida.html

WASHINGTON — Few places have seen the National Rifle Association wield its might more effectively than Florida, where it has advanced a sweeping agenda that has made it easier to carry concealed weapons, given gun owners greater leeway to shoot in self-defense and even briefly barred doctors from asking patients about their firearms.

In Florida and other states across the country, as well as on Capitol Hill, the N.R.A. derives its political influence instead from a muscular electioneering machine, fueled by tens of millions of dollars’ worth of campaign ads and voter-guide mailings, that scrutinizes candidates for their views on guns and propels members to the polls

“It’s the ability of the N.R.A. to tell its members: Here’s who’s good on the Second Amendment.”

The N.R.A.’s impact comes, in large part, from the simplicity of the incentives it presents to political candidates: letter grades, based on their record on the Second Amendment, that guide the N.R.A.’s involvement in elections. Lawmakers who earn an “A” rating can count on the group not to oppose them when they run for re-election or higher office.

or candidates who earn lower grades, the group deploys a range of blunt-force methods against them. The N.R.A. mails the voter guides to its five million members, displaying images of favored candidates on the front, and some state chapters bombard supporters with emails about coming elections


God, this is so sinister
 
There are so many thoughtful and respectful points made here from compassionate people on both side of the debate. It’s been an extremely emotional time, as it always is when these needless tragedies happen. As humans we will always be driven by passion and emotion, so it is especially important to be guided by facts, and the best information we have at hand. We haven’t been guided by the “best information” since the late 1990s when the Dickey Ammendment essentially barred the CDC and later the NIH from investigating gun violence and collecting data as part of national public health initiatives. Even Jay Dickey himself regretted this before he passed away. It’s time to demand funding for comprehensive data collection and analysis from our government, data that will increase informed debate and give our law makers something to work with, or be held accountable to. Bring the data in or #VoteThemOut.
 
The depressing truth about gun control

Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

Then, my colleagues and I at Five*ThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I’d lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence. The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns.

https://nypost.com/2017/10/05/the-depressing-truth-about-gun-control/
 
No easy answers to gun violence

https://www.newsday.com/amp/opinion/columnists/cathy-young/gun-violence-answers-1.16898081

Liberals can deplore the barbarity of their gun-loving compatriots; but it would be much more productive to try to understand the other side’s beliefs. The view that gun ownership is a sovereign individual right, not a privilege granted or withdrawn by the state, is peculiarly American; but the same philosophy underlies other features of the American tradition that most liberals cherish, such as uniquely robust protections for freedom of speech.
 
WE should have the same gun laws Japan has:
If Japanese people want to own a gun, they must attend an all-day class, pass a written test, and achieve at least 95% accuracy during a shooting-range test. Then they have to pass a mental-health evaluation, which takes place at a hospital, and pass a background check, in which the government digs into their criminal record and interviews friends and family. They can only buy shotguns and air rifles — no handguns — and every three years they must retake the class and initial exam.

Agree but only if the second part is strictly enforced which is to harshen the penalties of known criminals with a record who are now arrested committing a crime with a gun. And all the other enforcements previously mentioned in my post above. It’s the mentally ill and hardened criminals that we really have to watch now because “the horse has already left the barn” and there are guns everywhere.
 
YASSSSSSSSSSSS, Tempest! :woot:

There are so many thoughtful and respectful points made here from compassionate people on both side of the debate. It’s been an extremely emotional time, as it always is when these needless tragedies happen.

As humans we will always be driven by passion and emotion, so it is especially important to be guided by facts, and the best information we have at hand. We haven’t been guided by the “best information” since the late 1990s when the Dickey Ammendment essentially barred the CDC and later the NIH from investigating gun violence and collecting data as part of national public health initiatives.

Even Jay Dickey himself regretted this before he passed away. It’s time to demand funding for comprehensive data collection and analysis from our government, data that will increase informed debate and give our law makers something to work with, or be held accountable to. Bring the data in or #VoteThemOut.
 
Agree but only if the second part is strictly enforced which is to harshen the penalties of known criminals with a record who are now arrested committing a crime with a gun. And all the other enforcements previously mentioned in my post above. It’s the mentally ill and hardened criminals that we really have to watch now because “the horse has already left the barn” and there are guns everywhere.

What makes us think we can fix the issue of mental illness when no other country in the world has ever been able to? And without universal healthcare which the GOP refuses to even consider? What would be the solution? Lock up all the "crazies"?

The guns-are-everywhere argument should not be some slam dunk as to why we "can't" have stricter regulations and ban certain types of firearms. "Welp," the virologist said, "The virus is already spreading, might as well pack it up and quit trying to heal the sick."
 
As an educator, I want to thank all of you who are expressing thoughts on arming teachers that mirror mine.

First, if we want to protect children, we need to pay the money to protect children. An armed police officer is trained to assess the area. Teachers in their classrooms are not able to scan or take note of anything but the behavior that exists in the classroom. An officer moving around a campus or watching video come from video cameras can. They can be the best first defense.

Second, federal and state government buildings have some sort of police protecting the building, many have metal detectors, and outdoor and indoor video surveillance. While extremely costly, doing this for schools would lower the rate of attacks as it has on state and government buildings. (From the Government Services Administration following their increased security measures after OKC bombing--Measuring Success---Before describing the progress we have made delivering the specifics of our security program, I would like to talk about measuring results. As you know, I have been trying to manage PBS by the numbers by establishing outcome-oriented performance measures. Security is no exception. We are struggling to develop meaningful performance measures. Other security organizations, both public and private, are trying to do the same thing. Until we settle on those measures over the next few months, we can report the following results.

Criminal activity reported in our buildings has declined steadily since 1995. During 1997, the number of crimes against persons decreased by 6 percent and the number of crimes against property decreased by 3 percent.

There have had a 31 percent increase in the number of weapons violations that we have caught. During 1997, we recorded 612 offenses.

Also know that our security measures have made our tenants feel more safe. Results of recent customer surveys conducted by the International Facility Management Association (IFMA) indicate high levels of satisfaction with our security measures. @ https://www.gsa.gov/node/77310)

Third, it is astonishing to me that we have an administration that is spending more money on Secret Service, with other elected officials traveling far and wide (where many companies have their execs on conference calls to save money), tax cuts that will spiral the deficit but we want to do the "give them a stipend" or "train them all and see who would be good for the quota" which are things that most of us would bristle at it if it was us or pets, let alone our children. The madness here, IMHO, is that rather than saying we can control guns and look for ways to secure buildings the president says that we should go with a "low cost" solution and pay teachers a stipend. ("The White House was later challenged that 40% of America’s teachers being given a bonus of, for example, $1,000, would mean $1bn being distributed to a million of them." --https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/22/trump-proposal-teachers-guns-schools) How can we talk about going the cheap route here? If you had to choose a medical professional to do your heart surgery, would you choose a person who trained for 40 hours and reads more on the weekend or the professional who has been professionally trained, got their license, has a track record and trains continually? All of us want the highly trained because it is safer and has a greater chance of curing the issue. If there are only excellent doctors in a town thirty miles away or those who trained on a cadaver nearby, who do you want?

It is so specious to me that we would take the less optimal road for cost savings.

On another note, I don't want to gut the 2nd amendment but I can't see how a weapon with rapid fire capability in order to shoot through a metal helmet (linked in an earlier post) is needed by anyone in this country. Are there handgun issues? YEs, I am all for tightening the laws there for those who use them in crimes or don't secure their fire arms.
 
As a retired teacher and the mother and MIL of teachers, I say that dying for someone’s need to have a weapon that shreds organs is ridiculous.

The lives of teachers are not a sacrifice for people to have weapons including semi automatic handguns that serve no purpose. If people want to have fun, they can have them locked up at a gun club. Anyone who resents the inconvenience of having to go to a club makes me furious. To expect teachers to give up their lives for someone’s hobby is repugnant.

If it is such a wonderful idea, let them get their tactical gear on and guard for the $1000 a year that apparently is the bonus for being a target of death.
 
What makes us think we can fix the issue of mental illness when no other country in the world has ever been able to? And without universal healthcare which the GOP refuses to even consider? What would be the solution? Lock up all the "crazies"?

The guns-are-everywhere argument should not be some slam dunk as to why we "can't" have stricter regulations and ban certain types of firearms. "Welp," the virologist said, "The virus is already spreading, might as well pack it up and quit trying to heal the sick."

We can’t fix mental illness but we can certainly utilize a better system of keeping guns out of those sending up red flags that they are violent & threatening.

It’s more important than ever to look at **multi-faceted** approaches for gun reform otherwise it could fail.
 
One of the big issues in the Parkland murders (other than the murderer) is armed personnel who didn't even try to do their job. I understand that an assault rifle is not comparable to a pistol, but there should have been an effort.
 
Thanks for the link, Belle.

Good points made in this opinion column. Not sure why it's "depressing truth," other than the fact there's no "easy" fix, which I think most people agree with.

We need changes on many levels. There is no "magic bullet," pun intended.

As so many discussions show, imo.

Some of these reforms are happening already in a few states. Links posted upthread.

From the link (published Oct. 2017):

Instead, I found the most hope in more narrowly tailored interventions. Potential suicide victims, women menaced by their abusive partners and kids swept up in street vendettas are all in danger from guns, but they each require different protections.

Older men, who make up the largest share of gun suicides, need better access to people who could care for them and get them help. Women endangered by specific men need to be prioritized by police, who can enforce restraining orders prohibiting these men from buying and owning guns. Younger men at risk of violence need to be identified before they take a life or lose theirs and to be connected to mentors who can help them de-escalate conflicts.

We save lives by focusing on a range of tactics to protect the different kinds of potential victims and reforming potential killers, not from sweeping bans focused on the guns.




The depressing truth about gun control

Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

Then, my colleagues and I at Five*ThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I’d lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence. The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns.

https://nypost.com/2017/10/05/the-depressing-truth-about-gun-control/
 
One of the big issues in the Parkland murders (other than the murderer) is armed personnel who didn't even try to do their job. I understand that an assault rifle is not comparable to a pistol, but there should have been an effort.

I agree. I wonder what the level of ongoing training was. I wonder why they didn't do their job (I am absolutely appalled by their lack of actions.) and what are the lessons learned. How active were the officers in the drills that were done?

I have had limited active shooter training with my city's LEO and a university. The actions of teachers and administrators mirror my training. However, the actions of the LEO did not mirror my training. So, what happened? If officers don't feel that a hand gun is a match for a semi-automatic, rapid fire rifle, then we need to arm them with weapons that they feel can provide them with the opportunity to take out the threat.
 
The depressing truth about gun control

Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.

Then, my colleagues and I at Five*ThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I’d lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence. The best ideas left standing were narrowly tailored interventions to protect subtypes of potential victims, not broad attempts to limit the lethality of guns.

https://nypost.com/2017/10/05/the-depressing-truth-about-gun-control/

Good article. From your link below, it is about multi solutions. While I think gun reforms and tightening of loopholes are part of that as well, there really is a bigger picture.

I'd be curious to read some comprehensive stats on the states who do have stricter regulations. Because while rifles like the AR might be banned from purchase in my state doesn't mean they can't travel across the border with both law abiding citizens moving here with them, or sold privately, or cross the border with someone with bad intentions.

No one method is full proof. And the AR is a hotly politicized item, people give up its so frustrating. And it takes the focus away from looking at gun violence as a sum of many parts which it is.

To look at this from all sides has been really helpful, too. We know also there are certain realities like there are what, 227 million guns out there, there's no banning that, but also there's no funding or affordible mental health care either.

But I have hope because, like here and around the country, the discussion feels different, more urgent, after this last tragedy... Imo...

---
From NY Post:
"Instead, I found the most hope in more narrowly tailored interventions. Potential suicide victims, women menaced by their abusive partners and kids swept up in street vendettas are all in danger from guns, but they each require different protections.

Older men, who make up the largest share of gun suicides, need better access to people who could care for them and get them help. Women endangered by specific men need to be prioritized by police, who can enforce restraining orders prohibiting these men from buying and owning guns. Younger men at risk of violence need to be identified before they take a life or lose theirs and to be connected to mentors who can help them de-escalate conflicts.

We save lives by focusing on a range of tactics to protect the different kinds of potential victims and reforming potential killers, not from sweeping bans focused on the guns."
 
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