Gun Control Debate #4

Discussion in 'Rampage Killings and Terrorist Attacks' started by Tricia, Feb 17, 2018.

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  1. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator

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    In case you are wondering I have lost my mind.

    Rather than spend hours trying to remove posts in varies discussion that discuss the gun debate I thought I would give this a try just this once.

    The reason I have kept the gun control debate off Websleuths is that people will lose their minds. Sorry not trying to say I don't have faith in you. I am saying I don't have faith in some of you.

    All OF WEBSLEUTHS RULES APPLY.

    No name calling,
    No rudeness
    Mainstream media and respected journals, websites only. No crazy right or left wing sites.

    This is like any other topic on Websleuths.

    If someone could please make a post with the links to the demonstrations coming up that would be a good way to start.

    I will be watching this thread all through the evening.

    Full disclosure. In my opinion, it is obscene that we have automatic weapons available. period. However, I believe that Government will never have the courage to do the right thing and stop taking money from the NRA and start getting these weapons out of the hands of angry people. Therefore it is up to us to try and stop creating the kids who are so angry they feel killing is the only way. We keep waiting on the powers that be to do something and more and more innocents are killed. No more waiting. Let's pinpoint who these kids are and take them out of society, preferably via a mental health facility, and stop the carnage before one more AR-15 or any other assault rifle is picked up by the hands of a potential killer.

    Go for it.

    Tricia

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  3. Tricia

    Tricia Owner Websleuths.com Staff Member Administrator

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    You all have been posting some amazing thoughts and information.

    Most of you.

    Let's lay down some rules that should keep everything on track.

    1-NO DISCUSSION OF TRUMP OTHER THAN HOW HE IS DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE GUN CONTROL DEBATE
    This means no mention of how much he is hated or loved, anything to do with his tweeting unless it is gun control related.

    2-WE CAN ALL AGREE TRUMP HAD NOTES DURING THE MEETING. End of story. Yes, I know some of the notes were telling or maybe not. IT IS NOT IMPORTANT.
    Let's bring the discussion back to guns.

    3-PLEASE STOP WITH THE ACCUSATION THAT THESE KIDS ARE BASICALLY PUPPETS. They are kids. They will get help from adults and adults would be involved. They will get a lot of help from adults who agree with them. Don't know how you feel but I am so proud of these young people it brings tears to my eyes.

    4-PLEASE LET PEOPLE WITH DIFFERENT OPINIONS EXPRESS THEM WITHOUT ATTACKING. I want to hear from the people who believe differently than I do. If someone posts an unpopular opinion, of course, you can challenge them but do it in a way where I don't have to remove your post and time you out. Please. Let every opinion be heard and discussed in a mature manner. As long as the opinions expressed are within our Terms of Service.

    OK. Be nice to each other and let the discussion begin.

    Thank you,
    Tricia
     
  4. osu

    osu Member

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    Dick’s Sporting Goods Media Statement:
    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. Spellbound

    Spellbound Double, double toil and trouble

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    Just to be clear, Dick’s Sporting Goods stopped selling assault weapons after Sandy Hook in their Dick’s stores. They were later sold again in just the Field & Stream outlets. They never lifted their ban, or started selling them again in the Dick’s stores.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/...r-will-stop-selling-assault-style-rifles.html

    This is not the first time Dick’s has made changes in response to a school massacre. In 2012, after the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School that killed 26 people, Dick’s removed assault-style rifles from its main retail stores. But a few months later, the company began carrying the firearms at its outdoor and hunting retail chain, Field & Stream.
    This time, Mr. Stack said, the changes will be permanent.
     
  6. Blef

    Blef Verified Criminologist

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    I have to disagree. Even if you are defending yourself then your purpose for having a gun is to harm another, to defend your life. Guns are designed and built for that very purpose. I once heard someone (and I can't remember who as it was so long ago) who said "if you own a gun you HAVE to be prepared to use that gun and kill someone if necessary).

    I take GREAT exception at you saying it's usually mentally ill people (lumped in with EVIL people, and intoxicated) as statistics from all over the world (some examples below) show that the mentally ill are more at risk of being victims of violence than being perpetrators. Maybe the easy availability of guns is the bigger problem.

    http://ontario.cmha.ca/documents/violence-and-mental-health-unpacking-a-complex-issue/

    https://news.ncsu.edu/2014/02/wms-desmarais-violence2014/

    https://www.sane.org/mental-health-and-illness/facts-and-guides/fvm-mental-illness-and-violence

    http://jech.bmj.com/content/70/3/223
     
  7. flourish

    flourish Well-Known Member

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    Couple things

    When people are saying limit or don't allow people with mental illnesses to own guns, what exactly is the definition of "mental illness." Anyone diagnosed with depression or anxiety? That would exclude a lot of people, including the majority of the teachers I know.


    I was always taught you don't consider your gun for self defense unless you are willing to use it to kill. Several years ago, my at-the-time boyfriend inherited a bunch of firearms from his grandfather. Since neither of us had shot any firearms for a long time (not even sure he ever had), we kept the guns as far away from the ammo as possible in our little apartment. We didn't want to be tempted to whip it out in case of an intruder because we knew we weren't confident and would probably end up disarmed and shot with it.
     
  8. Blef

    Blef Verified Criminologist

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  9. rsd1200

    rsd1200 I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh

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  10. rsd1200

    rsd1200 I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh

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    From Pew Research in 2017. The Gap.

    [​IMG]
     

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  11. Lulu_la_Nantaise

    Lulu_la_Nantaise New Member

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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...urch-shooting-STAGED-arrested-harassment.html

    1) How criminally evil can you be to harass people who lost their loved ones?

    2) How criminally stupid can you be to believe such bovine manure? If this mass-shooting (or any other one) had been staged it would involve virtually all inhabitants of the town.
     
  12. rsd1200

    rsd1200 I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh

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    The AR-15 used to be illegal. President Bill Clinton’s assault weapons ban, which was in effect from 1994 to 2004, banned the AR-15 and other guns that were too similar to military-style weapons. However, this law did not prohibit Americans from owning semi-automatic weapons;1 it capped how many military features an individual gun could have. During the ban, a semi-automatic rifle like the AR-15 could legally have any one of the following features, as long as it didn’t have two or more of them: a folding stock (making the gun slightly easier to conceal), a pistol grip (making the weapon easier to hold and use), a bayonet mount, a flash suppressor (making it harder to see where shots are coming from), or a grenade launcher.

    The review for the DOJ concluded that bans on specific models or features of assault weapons had little to no discernible impact on gun deaths. If the law had any effect, the report said, it was most likely the result of bans on large-capacity magazines, which contain 10 or more rounds. (Large magazines allow shooters to keep firing without pausing to reload, a point at which their targets could run or fight back.)

    The report authors concluded that a ban on them probably wouldn’t make it hard to keep a determined shooter from legally buying a pre-ban magazine and pairing it with an AR-15 equivalent.

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/guns-like-the-ar-15-were-never-fully-banned/
     
  13. kaen

    kaen Trying to be a good human.

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    I don't see a gun control debate going anywhere without data. I had posted about the Dickie amendment earlier and think it belongs here on this thread as it is a crucial part of the debate---we can't know what is effective, not effective or has no effect unless we study it.


    If the CDC is back researching gun violence, then most of our conversations can be filled with data in addition to strong opinions. Maybe this is something all on both sides can agree upon.

    This from the originator of the Dickie amendment.

    WASHINGTON — Looking back, nearly 20 years later, Jay Dickey is apologetic.

    He is gone from Congress, giving him space to reflect on his namesake amendment that, to this day, continues to define the rigid politics of gun policy. When he helped pass a restriction of federal funding for gun violence research in 1996, the goal wasn’t to be so suffocating, he insisted. But the measure was just that, dampening federal research for years and discouraging researchers from entering the field.

    Now, as mass shootings pile up, including last week’s killing of nine at a community college in Oregon, Dickey admitted to carrying a sense of responsibility for progress not made.

    “I wish we had started the proper research and kept it going all this time,” Dickey, an Arkansas Republican, told the Huffington Post in an interview. “I have regrets.”

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b022a4ce5f45bf

    And this from the Rand Corp. (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ime/383083002/) ....

    "The RAND Corp., an influential think tank, created a research initiative called Gun Policy in America to provide a factual basis for the debate about gun policies to determine which work and which don’t.

    But in reviewing available research, RAND found a lack of studies that documented laws reducing violence rather than just coinciding with the results. A review of thousands of studies yielded 62 with causal results about gun policies, only two-thirds of them in the last 15 years.

    The reason: Federal funding for gun studies largely dried up 20 years ago. Annual spending bills in Congress since 1996 say no funding “at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

    The shooting deaths of 17 people at a Florida high school on Feb. 14 rekindled the nationwide conversation about gun policies. President Trump, lawmakers in Congress and Florida Gov. Rick Scott and his state Legislature are each grappling over whether more restrictive laws are needed."
     
  14. bears10

    bears10 Well-Known Member

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    This has happened after 9/11, sandy hook, Las Vegas, etc. Its disgusting.
     
  15. rsd1200

    rsd1200 I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh

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    Jumping off your post; This has been going on for years. States have actually passed legislation to STOP physicians, from asking/counseling parents about firearms in the home, and to promote trigger locks, safes, etc...



    [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]. (me)

    [/FONT]
    As of 08/2014, Image shows:
    Legislation Restricting Physician Counseling on
    Firearm Safety;
    Blue = Introduced, Yellow = Adopted

    (American Academy of Pediatrics)

    [​IMG]



    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/08/doctors-cant-ask-about-guns/375566/
     

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  16. Jennifer17

    Jennifer17 Well-Known Member

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    Another fact about Australian gun ownership. Children between the ages of 11 (12 in some states) and 17 can legally own and use guns as long as they get a minor's gun licence and are under the supervision of an adult licensed gun owner. The children have to take a gun safety course.
     
  17. BayouBelle_LA

    BayouBelle_LA Well-Known Member

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    Did an Obama-Era School Discipline Policy Contribute to the Parkland Shooting?

    https://www.usnews.com/news/educati...ntribute-to-the-parkland-shooting?context=amp

    "Disturbing reports have indicated that federal guidance may have contributed to systemic failures to report Nikolas Cruz's dangerous behaviors to local law enforcement," Rubio wrote to Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos and Attorney General Jeff Sessions in a joint letter dated Monday.

    At issue is a "Dear Colleague" letter and guidance from the previous administration, issued in 2014, which aimed to stem the school-to-prison pipeline by prodding schools to reduce the number of suspensions and expulsions, especially for students of color and students with disabilities, both of whom receive disciplinary actions at disproportionately high rates.
     
  18. rsd1200

    rsd1200 I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh

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    < snipped down for space>

    The counting of school shootings, and of other types of shootings and incidents of mass violence, isn’t a straightforward process.

    Starting in 2008, the FBI limited its definition of mass shootings to a single incident in which a shooter kills four or more people. In 2012, Congress officially defines "mass killings" as incident in which three or more people die. In 2013, the FBI changed the name to "active shooter" and a mass shooting is considered one in which fewer than four people die. The definition change makes historical study of the issue especially complicated given the variation in what counted as a mass shooting before 2008 and what counts now.

    The lack of reliable information on school shootings and other gun-related mass violence isn’t just a matter of inconsistency in definitions; political factors have also played a role in limiting access to information. Under pressure from the National Rifle Association, Congress in 1996 prohibited the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from funding public-health research on issues related to firearms. These prohibitions have largely persisted, and there is still no comprehensive federal database on gun deaths, let alone on school shootings.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...ther-school-shootingbut-whos-counting/553412/
     
  19. rsd1200

    rsd1200 I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh

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    Here is a link, from Education Week, who is trying to track School Shootings. It is current, as of the Feb 14th shooting.

    This page refers to incidents:


    • where a firearm was discharged
    • on K-12 school property or on a school bus
    • that occur while school is in session or during a school-sponsored event
    • resulting in injury or death of individuals who are not the suspect or perpetrator
    https://www.edweek.org/ew/section/multimedia/school-shootings-this-year-how-many-and-where.html
     
  20. Jennifer17

    Jennifer17 Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure what this post means. Students of color and disabled students are not doing the school shootings.
     
  21. rsd1200

    rsd1200 I mean good manners don't cost nothing do they, eh

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    Self delete. Dup.
     
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